benf wrote: Can you name

Abhishek Reddy — Fri, 14 Nov 2008 16:34:06 +0000

benf wrote:

Can you name some simple java setups to get me going - since i started this topic i have just read about the new JavaFX: looks very good.

JavaFX could be good for client-side rich apps – as an alternative to Flash, perhaps. Less so for ordinary HTTP apps.

Jetty is a light HTTP server. Click is a barebones Java framework. Grails and Lift are Rails-like frameworks for Groovy and Scala. Compojure is a simpler Clojure framework.

benf wrote:

As you said using a system that is open source rather than a commercial closed source system (such as adobe flash) is always better and gives you more control and further more usually comes with a community of people ready to help, talk and influence the development of the language / system.

I recommend free software, and that can be commercial too.

Some enterprisey systems are

benf — Fri, 14 Nov 2008 10:53:56 +0000

Some enterprisey systems are overcomplicated, and there are plenty of those in the Java ecosystem. But there are also simpler frameworks, libraries, and indeed languages available on the Java stack. I wouldn't write off the whole ecosystem on that basis.

Can you name some simple java setups to get me going - since i started this topic i have just read about the new JavaFX: looks very good.

I don't think it was.

JeevesBond — Thu, 13 Nov 2008 22:01:00 +0000

I don't think it was. Smalltalk and CLOS pioneered OO, long before Java halfheartedly adopted some of their ideas. To quote Guy Steele, Java took C++ programmers "halfway to Lisp".

I knew you'd pick me up on that! What I mean is, Java pioneered OOP for the masses. Lisp isn't an enterprisey language, whereas Java is loved by PHBs the world over (whether you regard that as a good thing is another matter).

Java as a whole is not dead

Abhishek Reddy — Thu, 13 Nov 2008 13:10:00 +0000

Java as a whole is not dead or dying. Java the language could become less popular as it is displaced by other languages that target the JVM, such as JRuby, Jython, Clojure, Scala and others.

JeevesBond wrote:

Java, when released, was a pioneering language in terms of OOP support (without the difficulties associated with C++) and cross-platform abilities.

I don't think it was. Smalltalk and CLOS pioneered OO, long before Java halfheartedly adopted some of their ideas. To quote Guy Steele, Java took C++ programmers "halfway to Lisp".

JeevesBond wrote:

Also, learning Java will help you learn to code, and once you can do that, you'll be able to learn any language easily.

It will certainly help you learn any language sufficiently like Java. At some conceptual level, Java shares much with C#, Python, Ruby, Perl, etc. But not quite as much with Haskell, Prolog, and arguably Lisp or C. It could become harder to learn those dissimilar languages, if you consider Java 'intuitive' because you learned it first!

benf wrote:

The trouble is that Java is such an enormous language with hundreds of frameworks, libraries and intallations that just setting it up takes forever.

Some enterprisey systems are overcomplicated, and there are plenty of those in the Java ecosystem. But there are also simpler frameworks, libraries, and indeed languages available on the Java stack. I wouldn't write off the whole ecosystem on that basis.

benf wrote:

If you ever just want to output "Hello World" with Java it takes about an hour.

No doubt Java the language imposes a lot of ceremony. However, consider the following complete 'Hello World' program using Clojure on Java: (println "Hello World")

benf wrote:

Plus im not sure about Javas own interpreted HTML out put? Suppose that is why PHP has taken off, its easy to install, quick to use and puts you in complete control.

However, this is also its weak point i suppose, bad developer bad scripts?!

I agree.

benf wrote:

If anyone can add to the advantages of learning Java would like to hear.

The advantages of Java are that the JDK is cross-platform, free, has a large, mature ecosystem including libraries and docs, and can be a decent target for dynamic languages.

benf wrote:

DO you think flash and actionsctipt is turning into a more interactive "Java" equivalent?

No. By using Java as a platform for dynamic languages, one can get interactivity and simplicity for free, while still being able to use existing Java libraries and tools. This is a much more promising option than morphing Flash into a Java-like VM.

The trouble is that Java is

benf — Thu, 13 Nov 2008 10:54:15 +0000

The trouble is that Java is such an enormous language with hundreds of frameworks, libraries and intallations that just setting it up takes forever.

Although im basing this mainly on Netbeans, i hate the way the system generates hundreds of lines of code.

If you ever just want to output "Hello World" with Java it takes about an hour.

Plus im not sure about Javas own interpreted HTML out put? Suppose that is why PHP has taken off, its easy to install, quick to use and puts you in complete control.

However, this is also its weak point i suppose, bad developer bad scripts?!

If anyone can add to the advantages of learning Java would like to hear.

DO you think flash and actionsctipt is turning into a more interactive "Java" equivalent?

Java certainly isn't dead,

JeevesBond — Tue, 11 Nov 2008 18:13:14 +0000

Java certainly isn't dead, it's still listed as the most popular language on the Tiobe index, not a perfect measure of popularity, but enough to show that there are plenty of Java developers out there.

Having said that Java suffers from quite an ugly syntax (relative to say C# or Python) and the profligacy of frameworks makes for a steeper learning curve than PHP.

The discussion you're opening up here is a can of worms by the way (that's not a bad thing). Some people will defend Java to the death, while others will loudly decry its shortcomings.

In the end though, it is most certainly worth learning. Java, when released, was a pioneering language in terms of OOP support (without the difficulties associated with C++) and cross-platform abilities.

Also, learning Java will help you learn to code, and once you can do that, you'll be able to learn any language easily.