Megan — Sat, 15 Dec 2007 16:04:43 +0000

Yes, and obviously it's in OPera's favour if websites are coded to standard and work.

Hakon Lie has also said that the timing of this has something to do with the recent antitrust complaint by Real Player against Microsoft for bundling Windows Media Player (which Real won). I think it was real player - Jeeves would know more about that (and he's sleeping at the moment so I can't ask him!)

JeevesBond — Sat, 15 Dec 2007 08:24:17 +0000

According to the US DOJ Microsoft should not be allowed to bundle any applications they like. They have a monopoly, so the rules are different. Also their intention in bundling IE was to destroy a competitor (and it worked), then use the deficiencies in that product to stop competitors entering the market. See Bill Gates' deposition in the anti-trust trial, they take him to task over Microsoft bundling IE. They were lucky a change of government let them off the hook. Note how development of IE ceased when it gained the greatest market share, this was to stop Web applications from being as usable/feature-complete as desktop ones (as desktop apps rely upon the Windows APIs).

Now they will continue to use the deficiencies in that product to make people move to Silverlight and XAML for the 'extra functionality' that would be available if Microsoft hadn't crippled the Web. This seems to be what Opera are scared of (in my opinion).

Don't think this is a lawsuit, just an anti-trust complaint. Like Microsoft complaining about Google's acquisition of Doubleclick. Might be wrong about that though.

Greg K — Fri, 14 Dec 2007 17:52:52 +0000

teammatt3;227317 wrote: Big bad Microsoft should be able to package their own operating system with whatever they want.

I have been saying that for years. Yeah it'd be nice if they played nicely, but it should be up to them to do whatever they want. Back when the whole complaint from netscape about IE coming with Win 95 i used to say "well nothing is stopping Netscape from writing their own OS"

Lets look at it this way... can I write a solitare game, sell it for $50, and then sue microsoft because they include a free solitare game with windows so people are not buying mine??

NOW, where I would draw the line is if (I heard rumors of this, not sure) Microsoft told someone like Dell "hey we won't grant you a discounted price on windows if you preinstall opera with it" (and of course if it came down to it, you know it wouldn't be in those simple of terms..... I would see it as "well we prefer you don't do that... lets talk about your discount [wink wink]" to keep it legal LOL

In the end unknowing people are IMO casuing the big problem here. Unkowning users are using IE as they don't know better, or they tried the others and didn't like that many pages didn't display correctly becasue unknowing web programmers (used very loosly here) made their pages for IE only.

-Greg

teammatt3 — Fri, 14 Dec 2007 17:02:51 +0000

I think it's ridiculous for Opera to suggest that the EU "Obligate Microsoft to unbundle Internet Explorer from Windows and/or carry alternative browsers pre-installed on the desktop". Big bad Microsoft should be able to package their own operating system with whatever they want. MS isn't stopping anyone from downloading Opera, or any other browser, they just don't have it installed by default. Opera shouldn't be suing to get a free ride on Windows (though I think it would be hilarious if Opera won, and MS put every browser on their but Opera).

If they forced MS into using web standards, I can't say I'd be too upset

PJ is covering this over on

JeevesBond — Thu, 13 Dec 2007 17:18:59 +0000

PJ is covering this over on Groklaw, in her own indomitable style. She's of the opinion that Microsoft will do the same to the OOXML standard they're pushing through ISO at the moment, makes sense. There're some good tid-bits in that article, I particularly liked:

Quote: People actually have to write programs to deal with Microsoft's version of HTML, so that web pages don't break and folks who use other browsers than IE can access successfully. Here's one for example, the demoroniser, so named because it will "Correct Moronic Microsoft HTML":
This page describes, in Unix manual page style, a Perl program available for downloading from this site which corrects numerous errors and incompatibilities in HTML generated by, or edited with, Microsoft applications. The demoroniser keeps you from looking dumber than a bag of dirt when your Web page is viewed by a user on a non-Microsoft platform.

Personally, I think Opera are scared by Silverlight. Microsoft really have no incentive to support Web standards, as they'd rather push people in the direction of XAML + Silverlight + .NET. There's no point in using an all-Microsoft stack if the same can be done with HTML + AJAX + RoR/PHP/Python/Perl/whatever and work cross-platform. Currently designing to standards then hacking for Microsoft is difficult, so it's easier to just use the all-Microsoft stuff: particularly if you can be more productive and create a polished product.

This is what I've heard around the Net anyway. Whether the people saying such things were paid by Microsoft we'll never know.