Abhishek Reddy — Wed, 08 Aug 2007 08:15:09 +0000

JeevesBond;222788 wrote: Sorry, I meant that it's not finished yet. The API of all languages may be growing and changing, but PHP's is fundamentally changing. I meant it's as if PHP hasn't even reached V1.0 yet and that we've all been taking part in the public beta for a number of years.

I think other languages are comparable in this way too. Java 1.7, Python 3, Ruby 1.9 and ECMAScript 4 are all going to be very different from their ancestors in all sorts of major ways. PHP is from the same generation as those languages, so I see no acceptable reason why it should lag behind so much.

JeevesBond;222788 wrote:
I believe we could see a switch from GNU+Linux+Apache+MySQL+PHP to GNU+Linux+Lighttpd+MySQL/PostgreSQL/SQLight+Ruby on Rails as the development environment of choice on GNU+Linux. It's the Free software answer to .NET

This is an interesting possibility. I'm considering switching away from Apache too -- but I'm too fond of it to let go just yet. It is still reasonably quick and modular (how's that for understatement?). I'm looking at Lighttpd or Hunchentoot for now.

JeevesBond;222788 wrote: Developers who do it only as a job use Microsoft, developers with passion use Free software.

Good point.

There is a slight sense of community around MS though -- it seems to turn up in meatspace more than online, and mainly in work circles, as you mentioned, or within Microsoft itself. Whereas Free software communities emerge everywhere.

JeevesBond — Tue, 07 Aug 2007 17:42:17 +0000

Abhi wrote: Sorry, I don't understand how PHP is not a complete language.

Sorry, I meant that it's not finished yet. The API of all languages may be growing and changing, but PHP's is fundamentally changing. I meant it's as if PHP hasn't even reached V1.0 yet and that we've all been taking part in the public beta for a number of years.

Not that I dislike PHP, it's good at what I want it to do.

Getting back to Apache Vs. IIS (has anyone used v7 of IIS, it's meant to be very modular and a lot faster than Apache?), I believe we could see a switch from GNU+Linux+Apache+MySQL+PHP to GNU+Linux+Lighttpd+MySQL/PostgreSQL/SQLight+Ruby on Rails as the development environment of choice on GNU+Linux. It's the Free software answer to .NET, probably easier to develop using RoR than .NET too (am guessing). Regarding Netcraft: as a great believer in 'lies, damn lies, and statistics' it seems to me that Microsoft are paying people off to bend the metrics in their favour. They're up to a lot worse at the moment!

Abhi wrote: We get a few of them here. (I won't name names.)

Well, I can only think of one and they left in a steaming fit of anger. Apparently we're too biased toward Free software (then why am I the only one who helps with ASP questions?!).

Abhi wrote: They spend a lot more time on MSDN or other MS-focused sites than in places like TWF.

True, perhaps Microsoft people just aren't as sociable/helpful as Free software people. Hows about this for a slogan: Developers who do it only as a job use Microsoft, developers with passion use Free software. There's certainly no sense of community around Microsoft products, not in the way Apple and Free software have managed to garner for themselves.

Abhishek Reddy — Tue, 07 Aug 2007 09:13:31 +0000

brady.k;222763 wrote: I don't want to sound like a continual PHP fanboy here, but I find the PHP docs to be fantastic. And if it's not in the official doc, then a comment or two below the item you need help on usually does the trick.

I agree.* I did refer to "free software documentation generally".

Distro docs are not usually that good, though there are occasional exceptions. Apache's is pretty bad, imo. MySQL's was nasty until relatively recently, when they made it more like PHP's.

* PHP PEAR's docs, however, are subpar. Maybe because it's not popular enough to attract eyeballs.

PHP applications tend not to be quite so well documented, which is another source of visitors to TWF.

brady.k — Tue, 07 Aug 2007 06:22:30 +0000

Just a brief comment, as I'm still too busy to have a huge argument...

Quote:
Abhi: "it could be that free software documentation is generally so bad that it..."

I don't want to sound like a continual PHP fanboy here, but I find the PHP docs to be fantastic. And if it's not in the official doc, then a comment or two below the item you need help on usually does the trick.

Abhishek Reddy — Tue, 07 Aug 2007 06:14:51 +0000

JeevesBond;222758 wrote: Are the PHP developers not slowly working towards this and given the rather large strides that have been taken towards getting stuff like OO and cleaning up the messes in PHP can we reasonably expect backwards compatibility?

Exactly, we can't reasonably expect backwards compatibility from PHP now. So PHP is a bad choice for those of us who want it.

They are making progress. They have a long way to go. I'm not holding my breath.

JeevesBond wrote: To my mind, and I don't really pretend to know that much on the subject (I just use PHP and don't think about it too much), PHP is not even a complete language. It's like one giant pre-release test where nothing is stable and the API is being worked on all the time. Not suprising when one considers PHP's history!

Sorry, I don't understand how PHP is not a complete language.

A growing, changing API is not a bad thing. I think all languages (or implementations) have it.

I don't claim to know a whole lot either. I learned all these things from experience, particularly by using other languages. I still use PHP, though I don't prefer it anymore.

JeevesBond wrote: Hey Abhi, what's wrong with RPC. Or was that just a bad pun for the sake of it?

Nothing wrong with it at all! (Are poles wrong because you wouldn't touch a nasty thing with a barge-pole?) It was a terrible pun for the sake of it.

JeevesBond wrote: Granted the Netcraft methods are hardly foolproof and Microsoft have been paying companies off to increase their market share, but I keep seeing comments on how fantastic .NET is and how it beats LAMP. Yet none of these people ever turn up here. Is it because we don't suit their demographic, or because all these people pumping-up .NET are actually MS shills? Anyone got any theories and is GNU+Linux dead as a webserver?

We get a few of them here. (I won't name names.) I don't think we appeal to them quite as much. My impression is that a lot of them learn web stuff at institutes, and not so much independently. They spend a lot more time on MSDN or other MS-focused sites than in places like TWF.

It could even be that free software documentation is generally so bad that it drives inquiring users to independent support forums.

GNU+Linux on the web is far from dead.

JeevesBond — Tue, 07 Aug 2007 04:45:23 +0000

Abhi wrote: I want lexically scoped variables, a smarter GC, orthogonal standard library and core API, backwards compatibility, a consistent OO system, thread safety, graceful recursion, a REPL ... at least.

Are the PHP developers not slowly working towards this and given the rather large strides that have been taken towards getting stuff like OO and cleaning up the messes in PHP can we reasonably expect backwards compatibility?
To my mind, and I don't really pretend to know that much on the subject (I just use PHP and don't think about it too much), PHP is not even a complete language. It's like one giant pre-release test where nothing is stable and the API is being worked on all the time. Not suprising when one considers PHP's history!

Hey Abhi, what's wrong with RPC. Or was that just a bad pun for the sake of it?

sublimer wrote: Me and my partners said screw this and went LAMP!

Am really wondering about this sort of thing. There was an article on Slashdot today, all about 'Netcraft Says IIS Gaining on Apache', but I see little evidence among the people who turn up here (both experienced programmers and the less exerienced). The comments thread is full of: this is because .NET is so brilliant! Everyone I know is switching from Java/PHP/Ruby to .NET!

Granted the Netcraft methods are hardly foolproof and Microsoft have been paying companies off to increase their market share, but I keep seeing comments on how fantastic .NET is and how it beats LAMP. Yet none of these people ever turn up here. Is it because we don't suit their demographic, or because all these people pumping-up .NET are actually MS shills? Anyone got any theories and is GNU+Linux dead as a webserver?

sublimer — Mon, 06 Aug 2007 16:58:53 +0000

greg;222740 wrote:
ASP is made by microsoft, I don't need to say anything else really, apart from a simple formula-

$$$ + :confused: * MS ACCESS = ASP

ASP / My Life = -20 years

Couldn't have said it better myself. I worked with ASP and Access for a few weeks. Me and my partners said screw this and went LAMP!

greg — Mon, 06 Aug 2007 16:41:09 +0000

PHP and MYSQL compliment each other
both are free
both give substantial usage and control over programming requirements

novices can quickly learn it to rattle a few simple scripts together, simple they may be but adding extreme functionality or end user options to their site

Advanced programmers can use it to get may proffessional functions

ASP is made by microsoft, I don't need to say anything else really, apart from a simple formula-

$$$ + :confused: * MS ACCESS = ASP

ASP / My Life = -20 years

sublimer — Mon, 06 Aug 2007 05:52:20 +0000

This is hard to debate. To me it's like saying what do you think the best weapon is?

Well, the nuclear bomb does a whole hell of a lot more destruction than a hand grenade, but they have different purposes and different applications.

If you were trying to say what language is best for doing so and so, then we have a discussion. The question is too broad.

Personally, I love PHP. And that's what I'll stick with for web development until it becomes outdated.

brady.k — Sat, 04 Aug 2007 04:36:13 +0000

(I read your re-re-response, but I don't have time to argue... probably tomorrow)