r2d246 — Thu, 15 Dec 2005 05:46:27 +0000

You got to get constructive critizism. Even me, a website developer and internet marketing millionaire likes feedback. I just got some recently from a different forum and I used it to improve my site today. That's why I like this section of the forum. It's great for website owners.

flash_f — Sat, 10 Dec 2005 12:44:58 +0000

Very nice site

demonhale — Fri, 09 Dec 2005 03:15:52 +0000

I had an old thread about CSS and Tables combination, a good read for you lex...

lex — Thu, 08 Dec 2005 21:16:53 +0000

Oh by the way . I use Tables for all my sites with CSS

Works for me.

lex — Thu, 08 Dec 2005 21:15:26 +0000

JeevesBond = 1217
Busy = 4,366
Lex = 53

I know where I stand. I appologize. Peace

Busy — Thu, 08 Dec 2005 20:59:59 +0000

JeevesBond wrote: Yeah sorry Lex, Busy's getting a bit slow in his old age. He's been typing that reply since this thread started.

You're kinda right, I had the thread opened then got called away, finished off reply without refreshing page ... so yeah, blame it on the old age

JeevesBond wrote: But really I think he's just spoiling for another argument about table based layouts. Not again!

Argument? discussion my good man, discussion

JeevesBond — Thu, 08 Dec 2005 19:15:05 +0000

Yeah sorry Lex, Busy's getting a bit slow in his old age. He's been typing that reply since this thread started.

But really I think he's just spoiling for another argument about table based layouts. Not again!

timjpriebe — Thu, 08 Dec 2005 15:07:11 +0000

Don't think this is all aimed specifically at correcting you, Alex. If you didn't realize it, there are probably others that did not realize it as well, so we just want to make sure we're clearer now and in the future.

lex — Thu, 08 Dec 2005 13:47:52 +0000

Busy wrote: If anyone wants to debate tables use, now and in the future (in another thread) ... bring it on

Lex, you said "Would you take financial advise from someone whos in collections? Would you take health advise from a smoker or an alcoholic. Would you take driving lessons from some who has a huge record of car accidents." Strange that as a lot of health professionals smoke, a lot of athletes are alcoholics and/or drug users, taxi drivers have a lot of accidents ...

Professionals are trained one way, usually someone elses way, no matter what they are a pro in. Being a semi pro or not even a pro means you are still open to learn new styles, new methods ... without upsetting your balance of knowledge (or lack of).
If I ask friends or family what they think about my sites or things I do, I know I will get a "hey thats cool" or "nice" even if complete crap. Ask someone else and hopefully you will get the truth.

Talk to a rude person find out the truth, talk to a nice person and find out what you want to hear.

OK? Like I have repeated myself over and over, I now know what TWF is all about now. Its for everyone with non to lots of knowledge. TWF is not just confined to professional advise if any at all. I understand

JeevesBond — Thu, 08 Dec 2005 13:22:11 +0000

demonhale wrote: I wonder why jeeves isnt here...

Lack of time mate, otherwise I'd love to wade on in.

But let's not get into the bloomin' tables vs semantic design thing again, that's not what this thread is about!

Although I'd quickly like to add what the W3C has to say about using tables for layout (WCAG 1.0 Guideline 3):

W3C wrote: Using markup improperly -- not according to specification -- hinders accessibility. Misusing markup for a presentation effect (e.g., using a table for layout or a header to change the font size) makes it difficult for users with specialized software to understand the organization of the page or to navigate through it. Furthermore, using presentation markup rather than structural markup to convey structure (e.g., constructing what looks like a table of data with an HTML PRE element) makes it difficult to render a page intelligibly to other devices (refer to the description of difference between content, structure, and presentation).

And remember that the automated checks are far from perfect, to make something accessible we actually have to read the recommendations!

As for the type of person who reviews a site, it is important that both normal users and web professionals do reviews. Often a normal user will find something a professional will miss, a user is particularly likely to find anything that's too "tech" or ambiguous in normal terms, or any aspect of usability that might seem normal to a professional (mystery meat navigation is a good example.)

It's not only learning for non-professionals we're trying to promote. We're also trying to help professionals get into the mindset of the average user. Since the average user is - by definition - the type of person who is likely to visit your site, this perspective is invaluable.