dk01 — Sun, 27 Oct 2002 09:38:00 +0000

youch! This thread calls for virtual beers all around!
-dk

Suzanne — Sun, 27 Oct 2002 00:47:25 +0000

Quote: Originally posted by jkd
If I actually tried to help? I have well over [b]8 thousand posts combined from other forums. If we assume I was only helpful half the time (though it is a lot closer to 95%, if not higher), I've still helped on more occasions than you have even posted.

I'm not going to get into a pissing contest with you about who's posted more on how many forums! Good grief! I've stated clearly, and repeatedly, that my issue is that you keep arguing against things I'm not saying.

Quote: I don't see why you continue on discrediting my character. I have yet to say anything negative about you, although you continuing on this tangent completely unrelated to the thread has certainly presented me with a negative opinion of you, and these forums (as a moderator, you should represent the forums).

I am NOT discrediting your character, you're doing a fine job of that all by yourself. I'm sorry you've decided to take this personally. Whether you have helped people elsewhere is irrelevant. The stance you are taking (absolutist, that people have to admit that they were "wrong" when they were following current usage standards, et cetera) is not helpful HERE.

Please do not bring in everything and the kitchen sink to this! If you want to debate standards and coding practices, by all means, let's continue. Otherwise, as long as you don't accuse me of saying things I haven't said, you can just argue with yourself about my character.

Busy — Sat, 26 Oct 2002 21:06:45 +0000

This is getting way off topic.
We know the W3C standards are recommended guidelines
We know there are a lot of ways to do different things, no real right and wrong.
We know there are a few version of everything floating around at the moment (HTML,XHTML, CSS1, CSS2 ...), so is hard to keep track of whats what.

The thing you have to remember is that W3C isn't a web god, they just make up the recommend standards that can be followed, but never have been fully followed since the start. thats why we have so many tags that arent universal.
They are human and do mess up, like us all, example
is a 100% valid XHTML tag, but it's not the correct tag as we all know from experience that using the width and height is a must or the page jumps around on loading and can slow down load time.

I do follow the standards, my HTML how to site only shows what is universal, my sites follow XHTML trans as minimum

jkd — Sat, 26 Oct 2002 19:57:40 +0000

Quote: Originally posted by Suzanne
My only issue with you is that you're arguing the wrong thing -- we don't need to tell people how wrong they are and how bad they are, we need to educate them about a better way of doing things. Being negative and blaming isn't going to do that. Explaining how to achieve the results is.

Perhaps if you actually try to help instead of trying to prove how much you know, it would be more effective, mm?

If I actually tried to help? I have well over 8 thousand posts combined from other forums. If we assume I was only helpful half the time (though it is a lot closer to 95%, if not higher), I've still helped on more occasions than you have even posted.

I don't see why you continue on discrediting my character. I have yet to say anything negative about you, although you continuing on this tangent completely unrelated to the thread has certainly presented me with a negative opinion of you, and these forums (as a moderator, you should represent the forums).

Suzanne — Sat, 26 Oct 2002 19:00:56 +0000

Quote: Using tables as presentational elements may be valid, but is an entirely incorrect practice.

That's not true. It was revised from saying tables shouldn't be used for presentational display at all, to saying that they were "correct" for presentational display. Certainly it's not ideal in most situations, but it is for some, and there is nothing inaccessible about them if they are done correctly.

I wasn't trying to discredit you, I was attempting to prevent YOU from discrediting ME by arguing against things I didn't say.

Suzanne — Sat, 26 Oct 2002 18:58:21 +0000

Dude, I'm a standards advocate. I also code to xhtml 1.0 strict and use css positioning and usability and accessibility are my primary concerns.

My only issue with you is that you're arguing the wrong thing -- we don't need to tell people how wrong they are and how bad they are, we need to educate them about a better way of doing things. Being negative and blaming isn't going to do that. Explaining how to achieve the results is.

Perhaps if you actually try to help instead of trying to prove how much you know, it would be more effective, mm?

jkd — Sat, 26 Oct 2002 15:38:34 +0000

*sigh* I give up. I obviously cannot convince anyone at these forums why web standards are a *good* thing, along with accessibity, though it should be self-evident for anyone willing to admit that maybe they were wrong at least once in their past about how they made their websites.

Take a look around w3.org sometime, perhaps you'll learn something about where the future of the World Wide Web is heading.

dk01 — Sat, 26 Oct 2002 12:12:57 +0000

I don't get it. If we have the W3C to tell us what is valid then who is anyone to say what is a correct or incorrect practice. I think that without people challenging what has been labled as "correct" the industry has been able to evolve.
-dk

jkd — Sat, 26 Oct 2002 03:55:34 +0000

Quote: Originally posted by Suzanne
Which is something that has been REVOKED for XHTML. Tables for presentational items are perfectly valid usage now. Even according to the specs. For accessibility, thought is needed, and summary and some consideration. But tables are most definitely valid in all senses of the word.

There is a big difference between valid and correct. "Valid" only means it validates against the supplied DTD or XML Scheme. "Correct" means you actually followed all the guidelines you should follow when writing your markup.

Using tables as presentational elements may be valid, but is an entirely incorrect practice.

I won't bother to reply to your last comment discrediting me either, it really isn't relevant at all to this thread. Feel free to pm me if you have any concerns.

Suzanne — Sat, 26 Oct 2002 00:05:29 +0000

Quote: And Suzanne. Tables as presentational elements were never standards.

Sweety, you're doing that semantic thing again... The standards of yesteryear were not defined by any body, but rather by what we all were doing. It was the usage standard to which I was speaking.

Quote: It is something awful designers started doing on their own to get the most control over their layout at possible.

No, it's something that designers did that pushed the web to newer heights. The proprietary code from browser developers (including some that has since become part of the official recommendations and specifications of different levels of HTML and XHTML) and the use of tables and other "wrong" things pushed the development of CSS and XML.

Quote: No where in the HTML spec does it to say to use tables as anything else other than tools for presenting tabular data. It even says not to use tables for presentation in there a few times, simply because it wreaks havoc on accessibility.

Which is something that has been REVOKED for XHTML. Tables for presentational items are perfectly valid usage now. Even according to the specs. For accessibility, thought is needed, and summary and some consideration. But tables are most definitely valid in all senses of the word.

Quote: Also, instead of saying there is nothing you can do it about it, perhaps you should look at this page on Netscape's own evangelism page:
http://devedge.netscape.com/viewsource/2002/img-table/ [/B]

There is a lot you can do about it. I didn't say there was nothing you could do, just that it's a KNOWN ISSUE.

You can change how you code, you can follow the advice on that page (which I actually recommend to people, amusingly) and make alterations in your CSS, et cetera. You can abolish the use of presentational tables, you can change how the presentational tables are used (no need for seamless tiles?)...

I'm happy to discuss this with you, but please stick to the facts and don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say there was nothing you could do, I didn't say that it was a problem with Netscape, et cetera.

You'll make better points if you work to help people understand instead of trying to show me up.