Mark Hensler — Mon, 22 Apr 2002 22:22:58 +0000

Quote: Originally posted by doublehelix
'Course, we all know not sticking in the \n's is laziness on my part, but I'll claim I'm saving file size to increase download speed. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

haha! Saving space.. I love it!! Trying to pinch every byte, eh?

dk01 — Mon, 22 Apr 2002 20:32:17 +0000

So I guess we've come to the conclusion that.... hmm nothing really but mairving I think I agree with what you are saying. Since I am originally an html programmer I always take care of my code and even code xhtml and xml properly and it validates. I forgot about people who fail to learn the basics of html, standards, code structure, and browser compatibility and just dive straight into server-side code. Possibly this is the problem. That there is not a process by which people tend to learn about making websites. I have spoken with people who are trying to learn javascript, php, and using databases but could not type a full page of html if i asked them. its shocking and i am not sure how it can be stopped.
-dk

doublehelix — Mon, 22 Apr 2002 19:36:34 +0000

Just to clarify, I guess I shoud have said templates used by perl instead of perl templates (whatever they would be). The templates are just text files with the html in them, the perl script reads them in a line at a time -- usually parses them for any variables I may be using -- and outputs it. Because I don't paste a \n in then you get the long string when you view code.

'Course, we all know not sticking in the \n's is laziness on my part, but I'll claim I'm saving file size to increase download speed. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

doublehelix — Mon, 22 Apr 2002 19:29:15 +0000

I write perl templates from time to time and I generally don't put the \n's in just to pretty up the code when somebody does a view source. After all, if I need to fix something I fix the template file, not the code output from the calling script.

openmind — Mon, 22 Apr 2002 19:27:39 +0000

Quote: Originally posted by taff

Apparently, WalMart, Ebay, and Barnes&Noble are setting the standards for web design these days. Who knew?

Where did u get that from! It's MicroYahoo that lays down the law. You know the one...

The hybrid child of the worlds largest pain in the arse and its mamma!!

You decide which ones which!!

Suzanne — Mon, 22 Apr 2002 18:56:59 +0000

I have to pop in here and mention that I customize third party applications like bulletin boards and shopping carts fairly frequently. And image galleries...

The people who develop the logic often use dreamweaver poorly to construct the initial template, then plug that code into their logic by embedding the HTML into the programming. Infuriating! I have, of course, learned oodles about Perl and PHP by having to edit the actual server side scripting to fix client side errors.

I would dearly love to see programmers learn how to write xhtml, or better yet, get someone how does know it to make the template, then they can program around it.

I think Mark and doublehelix et al are all right. It shouldn't matter whether you hard code the html or generate it through server side scripting. But unfortunately, it frequently does. Poor and improper use of OOP, or not using it, and poor use of templating can result in a godawful mess.

Also, though, Walmart, the initial target here, has legacy programming and code. Attacking their code for not being valid is as logical as attacking a Model T for not having airbags. A little bit of sense is called for here.

mairving — Mon, 22 Apr 2002 18:42:17 +0000

Quote: Originally posted by doublehelix
mairving,

The line you quoted effects readability, but not how well the code is written. If the stuff is just being pulled in from template files, those files may look considerably different than what gets output to the browser. Done properly, the interface should be seperated from the content. Designer works on the look-and-feel, developer works on the logic.

If you can't easily read what someone else has written, then it is poor coding. It has nothing to do with validation but nevertheless, it is poorly formed code. To me it is just a bit of laziness to write PHP like this:

<?php
echo \"<table><tr><td>Content</td></tr></table>\";
?>

instead of:

<?php
echo \"<table>\n\";
echo \"<tr>\n\";
echo \"<td>Content</td>\n\";
echo \"</tr>\n\";
echo \"</table>\n\";
?>

or better yet:

<?php
<table>
<tr>
<td> echo $page_content; </td>
</tr>
</table>
?>

doublehelix — Mon, 22 Apr 2002 18:32:40 +0000

mairving,

The line you quoted effects readability, but not how well the code is written. If the stuff is just being pulled in from template files, those files may look considerably different than what gets output to the browser. Done properly, the interface should be seperated from the content. Designer works on the look-and-feel, developer works on the logic.

mairving — Mon, 22 Apr 2002 17:53:53 +0000

Quote: Originally posted by dk01
Personally I think that code not being valid because of server side languages is bull. Normally you should have an idea of what kind of data is going to be written by server-side languages and if anything, validating your code will help to understand how server-side content should be set up.

I have just seen more and more crummy code because of server-side. I personally think that it comes because there are quite a few developers that are pretty good at coding but not good (or care) about the html part. What I really despise seeing is html all on one line, i.e. content.

dk01 — Mon, 22 Apr 2002 17:27:36 +0000

Personally I think that code not being valid because of server side languages is bull. Normally you should have an idea of what kind of data is going to be written by server-side languages and if anything, validating your code will help to understand how server-side content should be set up. Its not that it is wrong to use unvalidated code but why not use the W3C standards as a guideline. Overall they are trying to HELP webdesigners so that there will not be such a huge complication with handhelds and other devices. It pay seem like a pain in the *** right now but I'd rather change now than wait until later and regret it. Just my view on the sub!
-dk