Mon, 10 Apr 2000 12:49:00 +0000

Thinkhost,

I don't know why you are trying to pin the blame of your actions on the moderators and administrators of this forum. Like we forced you to post your spam! We can't make the rules any more prominent than they are without flashing a big red "DON'T SPAM" message, which just isn't possible because this whole forum is based around a piece of software that would make that *very* difficult. The "Posting Criteria" at the top is there, and it is in a very prominent page (viewable by most people without even scrolling) - It is, as you stated what we (the moderators and administrators) wish would happen in this forum - if the rules outlined in that note are not followed, your message will be deleted, simple. Whether it is spam or not.

Great! Just what this world needs, another lawyer! And, one that keeps the streets safe for the criminals! If you are going to pursue a law degree, why in the world are you trying to run a hosting firm and a design firm too?!?!?!

As you and I have both stated, spam is unsolicited advertising. Since you still don't have a clear understanding of spam, let me break down and define those two words for you (man, I hate playing English Teacher!):

unsolicited: Not looked for or requested;
advertising: The activity of attracting public attention to a product or business, as by paid announcements in print or on the air

NOTE: Both definitions taken directly from Dictionary.com

OK, so let me put that into a term you can understand more easily, since you are having problems understanding it in the above form: the activity of getting public attention to a product or business by sending the consumer something not requested.

What makes your posts spam is that the users that you spammed on this board didn't request information about your services. They requested information about other firm's services. Unless you are that specific firm or you have been a client of that firm, you have absolutely no right to make a post about your firm. This forum is for consumers to share hosting experiences with consumers - not for hosts to tell consumers about their services. Since you were only a consumer in one of your posts, the rest were spam - the information wasn't requested by the consumer, whether that is how you read it or not.

So, by definition, you did spam. Call me a liar, call me a thief, take me off to court, I don't really care. If you can't interpret the word spam and determine what is and what is not spam clearly, I definitly wish you the best in court.

It is quite clear that you are just trying to get some practice in with one of your classes on arguing, but I think lawyers have to do a little work on their part - maybe study the topic and know what you are talking about. You are basically trying to reinvent the word spam - kind of like going into a court room and saying "murder isn't really murder."

Spam is basically annoying. Since you love the constitution, doesn't it say we can't be subject to cruel and unusual punishment? Isn't that what spam is?

Thread is being closed and started as "Spam 2 - the thinkhost saga".

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TWF Administrator

Looking for Web Hosting Services?
Dynamic Internet Solutions : http://www.dids.com
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[This message has been edited by Chad Simper (edited 10 April 2000).]

thinkhost — Mon, 10 Apr 2000 12:23:00 +0000

oops... clear-cut lack of a good reason to get rid of me, because in the end all i did wrong was go against etiquette of the forum, etiquette which due to a mistake on behalf of the moderators was never posted in the terms & conditions but rather in a very hidden place.

thinkhost — Mon, 10 Apr 2000 12:18:00 +0000

Folks,

You have to realize my viewpoint -- I am simply extremely upset that you are using the excuse of spam in order to block and make up for a clearcut lack of

Were the posts somewhat spammish-sounding? Yes. Did they sound biased? Yes. Were the posts posted carelessly and without as much consideration as there should have been? Yes. Were they spam? NO. As long as the information is requested, you can not call that spam, no matter how you turn it. This is a clearcut defined right covered by free speech, and while it was advertising it was not spam because it was information that the user was requesting.

As I was telling a friend, it is indeed my free right to walk into a crowded vegetarian's convention with a T-Shirt that says "I adore killing and eating chickens and meat!!" and just as well I could walk into any other place with a T-Shirt advertising my services, just as much as I could start handing out flyers about my services on the street.

Now of course this is where I'd like to see this discussion go which is in the direction of how spam should really be dealt with. From my viewpoint it is entirely and morally wrong to label every single bit of advertising as spam -- the fact is that advertising is indeed covered under free speech, and advertising also happens to be the base on which our free market economy swivels upon. Should we really be filtering out all advertising on forums, e-mail, etc., and does that not violate the Freedom of Speech?

I think after some thinking and reasoning I am would be even more tempted to lean towards the side of some who say that advanced e-mail and web browser software with filters at the user-end point and user-requested filters at ISP's point are the answer, because until that flood of whatever form of spam slows down or interrupts service for someone else, it is really not doing any damage, and really is a form of free speech, is it not?

After all, we receive paper advertising of all sorts in the mail. How is anything online different? Just because its cheaper? Why, as ISP's and professionals have we taken such a strong stand against something that is likely just another form of free speech and the clear base of our free market economy? Is this just a result of some individuals' moving too fast without providing for any clearcut reasoning and thinking?

I would love to see some of the reasoning behihnd this, and hope that folks will reply.

Chad, your sarcasm is appreciated I think you won't be too surprised to find out that that is one of my intentions some day I am currently pursuing a business degree at the University of Michigan, and intend to go on to Law School, hopefully ultimately to become one of the best lawyers out there because too many cases like this go unnoticed, and frankly there is a clear need for someone who is willing to go out there and make a real difference.

Fairhousing: is it so wrong to be biased? Are we not ALL biased in one way or another? Please tell me that you're not biased against certain foods for example or against dating [or your kids dating] certain types of people? Biases are a part of who we are.

jackchen — Mon, 10 Apr 2000 08:13:00 +0000

Can someone continue this thread on a new topic?

This page is getting longer and longer to load.

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fairhousing — Mon, 10 Apr 2000 07:30:00 +0000

hilarious, blah and thinkhost have virtually no post in this forum, except for here of course.

i picked up on the nature of thinkhost's post on one of his very first ones. whether is spam or not, that's not for me to determine. i just know i didn't get any unbiased info from his post.

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[This message has been edited by fairhousing (edited 10 April 2000).]

Mon, 10 Apr 2000 05:49:00 +0000

NSS,

That isn't a bad idea. It would definitly have to be ran by JP... The problem is we don't want to make the forums really cluttered and hard to navigate. I am up for making a general "spam" forum where web hosting companies and designers and marketers could make one post regarding the company and services...

I will see what JP thinks about it... What do you think thinkhost?

I would also like to note that I have nothing personal or business related against thinkhost. He is probably a great person that just made a mistake (in a lot of people's eyes anyway) and he has apologized... I have no wishes to continue this argument.

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TWF Administrator

Looking for Web Hosting Services?
Dynamic Internet Solutions : http://www.dids.com
Windows NT and UNIX Hosting ($9.95 - $399.95), Dedicated Servers, and Co-Location Programs

Mon, 10 Apr 2000 05:40:00 +0000

ROFL!

Well, I had hoped this thread wouldn't become and argument between us, but I guess that is what it is.

I really don't think you understand the point here - None of my actions have been done because you are a competitor. Tons of hosts have posted here, but they post with valuable content which is left posted because it isn't spam.

I guess your "legal" threats mean nothing to me because you have no grounds. I have done absolutely nothing to you. As for my agruments having no legal grounds, I don't think they were ever meant to have _legal_ grounds - they were only meant to prove my point (which you are taking care of for me).

Spam has a pretty specific definition - unsolicited advertising. Though you say you understand the meaning and you do in fact know the definition, you don't seem to be willing to comprehend what it does truly mean.

My deletion of your posts was very much correct. Your posts had no right being in this forum - please spam a different forum if you insist on doing so. If you want to post with genuine help, go help out in the Web Site Critique area or something. I rarely make posts in this particular forum - why? Because this forum is a place for consumers to ask other consumers about hosting services. Not for consumers to be bombarded by a slew of spam messages which only waste space.

I have no intentions of letting this incident change my views and opinions on spam and what I think about it.

I guess what you really don't understand is that your threats of legal actions don't scare me. Not in the least. I have done absolutely nothing wrong, not even if your upstream providors would have decided to disconnect you. It's funny - I have had the same attitude towards spam for the 5+ years that I have been on the Internet, and not once have I been threatened by someone - you are indeed a first (thanks for the comic relief).

If I gain leverage by having the TWF Administrator status, sue me. I spend a lot of time at TWF, trying to keep it in shape and everything. I don't however, blatantly spam the boards. I don't use my title for anything - what people associate that title with is up to them. Just a piece of advice - We have gained customers by my presence at TWF... We often get things like "your post at TWF was very helpful and I feel your support will be the same"... This is in response to a piece of advice that I offer somewhere, like in the Misc. Scripting Languages forum. If you would just participate in the forums helping people, they would definitly give your hosting company a look if they were in need of your services.

quote:I am also willing to bet that you have e-mailed EACH and EVERY one of the people who has posted on this board asking for services advertising you firm, since that sure seems to be what you are encouraging others to do.

Those of you that have received a direct spam from my firm, speak up now! I hope you have time to wait thinkhost, because it isn't going to happen. My firm hasn't e-mailed a person about our services, ever.

You are trying to center my actions around my hosting firm, and they have nothing to do with my hosting firm. Again, let me STRESS that my actions against you were not because you are a competitor - I could care less.

I invite you to run to my upstream providors about my "spam" - That would definitly be interesting. Make sure you give them the evidence

quote:Chad, today you were lucky that I didn't pursue legal action against you and your company, just because I am a nice guy -- I don't like starting trouble where its not deserved, and frankly this was although not legally, but ethically partially my fault. I suggest you seriously reconsider how you handle these incidents in the future unless you want to be put out of business by someone else who will have more free time and money than I have.

[sarcasm]Must just be my lucky day! Thanks for taking pity on me! [/sarcasm]

To everyone, I apologize for my attitude... As you all know, this isn't the normal, professional Chad... It is just really late and I find thinkhost's post quite comical. I mentioned an upcoming novel earlier, I am beginning to think that we could use thinkhost's post as a comic strip!

OK, so, now that I have said that, and thinkhost has said his opinion, the rest of you jump in ... Thinkhost, I ask that you make no further posts to me (I don't want to continue arguing... We can do that offline so that we don't make this page any larger). By all means, you can post in reference to other posts that are sure to come.

Have a good night everyone! [notice the spam signature below before you go]

------------------
TWF Administrator

Looking for Web Hosting Services?
Dynamic Internet Solutions : http://www.dids.com
Windows NT and UNIX Hosting ($9.95 - $399.95), Dedicated Servers, and Co-Location Programs

NSS — Mon, 10 Apr 2000 05:32:00 +0000

Hi Chad,

I would like to make a recommemdation on a business point of view and it may who knows generate a good income for TWF and help pay for expenses to maintain this forum.

My suggestion is open up another section for Web host providers in this forum and allow them to advertise their services only and further enguiries can be done by other means e.g. email,ICQ, etc.

This way TWF can attract a lot of web hoster wishing to advertise in this very popular forum (TWF) and it will also benefit members and surfers and make TWF a very favorite place to visit.

I don't know, maybe this idea may not be appropriate to a forum or the owner(JP) may disapprove of this. Anyway give it a thought.

I am only giving this suggestions and ideas for the better of TWF community.

Hope this helps.

NSS

[This message has been edited by NSS (edited 10 April 2000).]

thinkhost — Mon, 10 Apr 2000 05:13:00 +0000

Oh Chad -- one more notion... By having the title of administrator, you are [likely unwillingly] gaining leverage with users when you make posts. No matter how you turn it, you are using your title in order to profit your company.

I am also willing to bet that you have e-mailed EACH and EVERY one of the people who has posted on this board asking for services advertising you firm, since that sure seems to be what you are encouraging others to do.

Is that SPAM? YES. By making a post, the end-user requested the information be replied to in a similar fashing did s/he not? Thereby, you are guilty of the same wrong you are wrongly accusing me of.

The fact is that whether unwillingly or not, you are encouraging spam, but you are encouraging SPAM that will not hurt your firm as much because not everyone will see the posts about each company, but rather just that one individual.

Hrm, now will I go run to your connectivity providers and scream to them about spamming? Naah, not till you spam one of my clients, and they complain.

Chad, today you were lucky that I didn't pursue legal action against you and your company, just because I am a nice guy -- I don't like starting trouble where its not deserved, and frankly this was although not legally, but ethically partially my fault. I suggest you seriously reconsider how you handle these incidents in the future unless you want to be put out of business by someone else who will have more free time and money than I have.

I honestly wish you the best of luck, and may God help you avoid someone who is less capable of taking offense and writing off pointless roars as just roars as I have done in this case.

thinkhost — Mon, 10 Apr 2000 05:06:00 +0000

JackChen: but the bottom line is still the same -- I had every right to make those posts no matter how biased they seemed to be. I was providing information, and there isn't any argument you could make against that. Could you come up to me and scold me? Sure, thats your right! Would I have to listen to you? No

This is a VERY greyish area because two issues are involved -- fredom of speech vs private property.

Am I against spam? Yes you bet I am, but there is a BIG difference between SPAM and advertising, advertising which is CLEARLY covered by freedom of speech.