Email for Targeted Groups

how many addy's do u get to send ur message to for that price?

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Thumbs up or downs ratings and more on affiliate programs.CLICK 4 CASH

Out of curiosity, why doesn't that type of promotion count as spam? Or does it?

Just to play Devil's Advocate: Even if I did fill out a questionare and said it's ok to send me info, when I get the email from Jili's company I don't know where they got my address. I might mistakenly think it's spam and make a complaint.

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ArtsNFlies.com
"It's not really a flyfishing shop, more like a Martha Stewart goes fishing thing!"

Original art, hand tied flies, unique books and gifts, free sweepstakes and MORE!
Come see what everyone is talking about!

...And then your company goes out of business because 25k people thought you were spamming. The first thing I do when I get an e-mail from some company I don't know is I look for the unsubscribe feature. I would look into spending that money on banner advertising.

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Justin S.

Justin - I think you touched upon a key point. The people think you were spamming. But you weren't. NTL, your company is potentially in hot water.

Direct marketing to willing consumers is a viable and legal strategy. So what can one do to protect yourself? (other than just not doing it).

It seems to be a catch-22 situation: If someone gives permission for companies to send them email it's OK but if there's no way of knowing for sure where it actually came from then it's spam. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

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ArtsNFlies.com
"It's not really a flyfishing shop, more like a Martha Stewart goes fishing thing!"

Original art, hand tied flies, unique books and gifts, free sweepstakes and MORE!
Come see what everyone is talking about!

[This message has been edited by Jaiem (edited 31 January 2000).]

The source of the email is given each time so... I did this just to see what happened and I know where the ads are coming from. Not that I'm going to go buy them but wonder if people do, I suppose they do....?

Jili - It depends how you define "spam". I've spoken (emailed) with various anti-spam groups/organizations. On the whole they all consider anything someone didn't explicitly ask for as spam. Even if you gave your permission to a 3rd party to send your name&address to others they consider it spam.

IMO that's crazy. That just doesn't reflect the reality of the real business world. But that's how they view it an how they want to enforce it.

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ArtsNFlies.com
"It's not really a flyfishing shop, more like a Martha Stewart goes fishing thing!"

Original art, hand tied flies, unique books and gifts, free sweepstakes and MORE!
Come see what everyone is talking about!

You guys don't realize what a help you are - thanks for your input.

Well, if the members clicked that it was OK to share the information with companies then how can it not be OK? I don't see how it can be SPAM. Also, I have heard that sometimes you receive SPAM with instructions on how to unsubscribe from the list. When you follow these instructions it actually triggers the SPAMMER to send you more junk mail. There are some great solutions at www.cauce.org . Also, when you send a mail from yesmail, the mail comes from yesmail.com it isn't sent using your company's mail servers.
At www.fileworld.com I downloaded a program called spamhater and what it does is analyze the headings in the SPAM and gets all related email addresses and automatically attaches a SPAM complaint with it. I think this is the best way to go against SPAM. Hope this helps.

Chris
get paid just to be online @ http://makemoneynow.web.com

Rivimont - I agree. Direct marketing to qualified leads is a time honored (and very legal) practice in the non-cyber world, so why should it be different in e-commerce? Why should e-commerce be a totally passive activity? No business can survive by just opening the doors and hoping people come (and not everyone can afford to hire Capt. Kirk to do quirky TV commercials).

The problem is an image if unsolicitaed email has been created to the point where it's consided the plague of cyberspace. No doubt all the cyberporn spam has much to do with it (don't get me wrong, I'm not happy with that either). NTL, it's at a point where just the accusation of spam is enough to get you in deep trouble with no hope of defense. IOW, if someone feels spammed then they were spammed regardless of what permissions they gave, indications of interest, etc.

As an e-commerce business owner it's of great concern to me. I've been in contact with several elected officials in Washington about the various proposed anti-spam laws. Most are terrible to say the least: Allowing someone to sue for damages if they receive what they believe is unsolicited mail, having various government organizations keep records of spam complaints, sactions, fines, Federal investigations, etc.

And, key to all this is again just the claim of spam with no way for you (the website owner/operator) to refute or defend the accusation. IOW, accusation=guilt.

All e-commerce web owners and operators should be very concerned about this! If just the claim of spam can get a site sanctioned I may as well close shop now.

(Sorry for the long post - I get very agitated over the whole thing)

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ArtsNFlies.com
"It's not really a flyfishing shop, more like a Martha Stewart goes fishing thing!"

Original art, hand tied flies, unique books and gifts, free sweepstakes and MORE!
Come see what everyone is talking about!

[This message has been edited by Jaiem (edited 04 February 2000).]

I'm scared now to try email marketing but just wanted to post that when you get these emails they state that the person subscribed to them from such and such a place and that they can unscribe if they want, etc.

Yes- many e-mails have an unsubscribe feature. I know that I always do that before I would even complain. But thats just me.

Another thing I have seen is some mailings have said: "This e-mail was sent in accordance of Such and Such an Act."

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The fireburn.com Network:

Jili - Not trying to talk you or scare you out of anything. Just letting you know some of the things I've encountered and read myself.

A real example: Last August someone filled out the Sweepstakes page on my site and selected YES to the question of receiving our monthly emailing. The question requires a person to select YES or NO and does not default to YES as many other sites do. PS- 3 months later we get an irrate email from this same person saying quote "Stop sending your cr*p!" We of course immediately removed the person from the list but sent a polite message back to them saying how they had requested to receive the info and even included a copy of the transaction record where they had indicated YES.

My point is, here's a person who gave their permission to receive the information yet apparently didn't know why they were infact getting it. If they wanted to I'm sure they could have claimed spam even though we have in writing their permission to send it. As I mentioned before, the situation unfortunately seems to be that if you feel spammed then you were, and no business can survive like that.

As a footnote: Because of that and a few other incidents since then we have temporarily suspened our monthly mailing and quarterly newsletter. Heaven knows how much business we've lost because of it!

Justin - I'm not aware of any telecom laws as yet that cover spam (though several are proposed under very misguiding labels like "Internet Commerce Advancement Act"). I've been told (don't know if it's true or not) that these statements "complying with such-and-such laws" have no basis.

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ArtsNFlies.com
"It's not really a flyfishing shop, more like a Martha Stewart goes fishing thing!"

Original art, hand tied flies, unique books and gifts, free sweepstakes and MORE!
Come see what everyone is talking about!

[This message has been edited by Jaiem (edited 07 February 2000).]

Many of you are missing the point and, in doing so, have scared jili1 and God knows how many others from email advertising.

When you collect your own emails like Jaiem did, there are a lot of potential mine fields out there. People who forgot they signed up, people not really interested in your stuff after all, and people who are just generally pissed off are many of the problems that you face if you manage your own list. However, if you rent a list from a major email advertising company you don't have any of these problems.

Here's why:
*When people sign up for an OPT-IN Email List at a major email ad service, they know they are signing up to receive advertisements in addition to the free articles, etc. These major opt-in companies make it more than clear that they will receive all sorts of information regarding the topic(s) they signed up for.
*Each ad that goes out has a message at the top that says (for example): "This is a sponsored message from yesmail.com."
*They also usually put another line reminding the recipient that they requested this information.
*If the person feels they were mailed in error, they contact the email ad company, not you.
*The email ad company checks in with list members regularly to make sure they want to be there.
*And the ligitimate email ad companies take full responsibility for any retalitory actions by their members (which almost never occur because they keep up with their members).

With opt-in email advertising becoming one of the leading sources of online advertising (because of its high rate of success), it is suprising to see so many webmasters opposed to opt-in advertising. We have advertised a number of clients this way and all have been more than satisfied.

If anyone has any questions about advertising feel free to contact us: office@mountainworldwide .

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Mountain WorldWide
SE Optimization, Banner & Opt-In Email Advertising, Media Planning, and more...

Mountain - Hate to disagree with a Moderator but I must on this one.

You assume the recipient will act honorably and by the rules. You assume the person will fully read the email, see the part about it being sent because they agreed to receive it, and see and understand the part about being removed if they choose. Not everyone will act that way. And it only takes 1 or 2 complaints to get yourself dropped by your host.

Even with all the controls you say that an opt-in list uses, at the moment, it's still a matter of how someone feels. If someone feels bad on a particular day or if they just want to be an ass about things for whatever reason they could still claim spam. And most hosts won't give a hoot about the facts just the accusation (if you know a host with a written review and arbitration policy for resolving complaints please let me know!).

In short, direct emailing is a good marketing tool, and IMO should be just as legal and allowed as snail-mail direct marketing. Opt-in, rented/purchased, or self-managed. But until the dust settles on this brave new world of e-commerce it's still a mine field.

I'm not trying to scare anyone. Just pointing out a darker side to the net (and perhaps human nature?) that few people know of until it bites them.

ps- Why does using an opt-in list eliminate all those problems you mention above? One could just as easily put the same language into your own email distribution. Plus the fact that in the non-cyber world it's also a legal an accepted practice. I call a company and ask for their catalog. They send it, along with regular updated. No one says the company must use a 3rd party to manage their mailing list.

pps- FYI:According to one anti-spam group they claim that $2 of everyone's ISP fee goes to controlling spam. That's one reason why they feel spam is theft.

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ArtsNFlies.com
Original art, hand tied flies, unique books and gifts, free sweepstakes and MORE!
Come see what everyone is talking about!

[This message has been edited by Jaiem (edited 08 February 2000).]

A real, legitimate opt-in advertising firm will Guarantee that you will not receive any hate mail back. They eliminate your liability by taking the responsibility. If the service you are thinking about using does not offer this guarantee, don't use them.

If you are still uneasy, simply contact your ISP and tell them about the ad you are about to run, the ad service you are using, and the agreement you have with the service. Then, if they somehow still get a complaint, they know your situation.

Opt-in ad firms take away the risk of spam complaints by keeping their lists as current as possible and insuring that the chances of retaliation are miniscule. By using these companies, and by planning ahead (calling your ISP and anyone else who might be affected by an "anti-spam" attack), you avoid any possible set backs in your day-to-day operations.

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Mountain WorldWide

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