Is the text on your site important?

A few things...

If I were to sit back and solely rely on my web site for clientele, I'd starve. In my opinion, a good web site is a supplemental to more agressive forms of marketing.

Secondly, perhaps you are focusing on the wrong principal by zeroing in on the web designer. While I agree on the importance of good copy and will fix the obvious errors that I encounter while designing a site, ultimately my client is responsible for the content of the sites I design. Quite often, this content is more universal than the web site and is also used in the client's print material as well. Maybe you need to address the business from a broader perspective.

Alternatively, if you prefer to continue approaching the design community, maybe you should tackle it as a partnership or value added service that those designers can offer to their clientele.

Thirdly, if writing and editing are your primary focus, perhaps you should re-evaluate your site. On quick glance, it comes across to me as a site selling design services of which writing and editing are merely a part. Maybe you should focus more on your writing and editing services.

Hey taff

Thanks for the response.

I didn't mean to imply that I only seek customers through mmy website. As you can tell from mmy use of the word "rarely," I'd do worse than starve if I depended on that for income. I wouldn't even be able to pay the electric bill to run this wonderful torture box.

I have a steady trickle of income from other sources--screenwriters (for some reason ), academic authors, printers, a couple of local businesses, the occasional book publisher, etc. But that's not the market I'm trying to address here.

Quote: ultimately my client is responsible for the content of the sites I design

This is the response I got from a local printer the other day. He said he doesn't get many clients who would require/desire mmy efforts. I suggested that by offering a CE service and getting the word out in the community about it, perhaps that would actually expand his opportunity for that work. Scowl and headshake.

He ended up saying he "wasn't going to waste his time offering mmy service to his customers." Since I had opened the pitch flatly stating that he would be earning revenue (with basically no costs) through an association with mme (I'm in effect a subcontractor to the printers I work with), I suppose I'm left to conclude he either wasn't paying much attention or doesn't know what he's doing. Looking back on mmy time with him (and the fact that he wouldn't schedule an interview--kept telling mme to "drop in," which I did ... five times for a twenty-minute conversation, half of which was an unsolicited and, as it turned out, useless, consultation on how to run mmy business), I'd say it's both.

I think the same logic can be applied to web developers. If I charge a site builder fifty bucks to clean up some copy, they can turn around and easily charge seventy-five (mmy rates are very low relative to the quality of mmy work--hopefully they won't always be).

And there's always the question of the copy on the developer's site itself. I know people work hard to have their text look good. Isn't it a mistake to fail to invest a little money to really get there?

Finally on that point, many site owners/operators who visit development fora aren't web designers. They look right past mme as well, for whatever reason.

Quote: Maybe you need to address the business from a broader perspective.

You may be right, but isn't it going to be more efficient for me to deal with people in the way I've been attempting. I reach a worldwide market through the web. How would I be better off advising a realtor in Vancouver about his brochures, flyers, etc., when I have his/her web copy right in front of mme? Indeed, how would I access that other material?

Quote: maybe you should tackle it as a partnership or value added service that those designers can offer to their clientele

I do the former (through Web Xpertz, which seems to be a permanent work in progress) and I attempt to suggest the latter. I suppose I should be more explicit about that. But why hasn't anyone looked to take advantage of the opportunity? Do you see mmy point? If it's a good idea (and I think it is), why don't people bite on it? By pitching it more effectively, I guess I'd get more of it. But I don't get any.

Quote: perhaps you should re-evaluate your site

Yes, mmy site definitely needs a sharper focus. But the issue I'd really like to address in this thread is the one I raised already. Why do site owners/operators neglect the quality of their copy? I used to throw the old "imo" into Q's like that, but I've been at this a while now and I'm fairly certain of mmy perspective.

I can understand people saying, "I didn't realize my site needed work in that area." After encountering mme, that mistaken impression should be dispelled but apparently it is not.

I'm told by some that they want "statistical evidence" proving that a relatively nominal fee for CE'ing will produce a steady stream of increased profitability. Tbh, I don't believe many of these people are capable of accurately analysing such research. More importantly, if they were, it would be more expensive to spend time evaluating evidence than it would be to simply use common sense and take the advice of experts in business and customer relations: copy counts.

Anyway, before I ramble on too much, I'd really like to hear some more input from the membership here.

Remove everything that doesn't sell you. Period. Be ruthless. Build another site for your ramblings and theories and happy chatter. On the business site, cut to the chase.

Also, examples. You need examples. Provide crap copy and great copy. Problem, solution.

ALSO, you really really really need to lose that hover thing. It's really distracting and annoying. I can't click on it! It's just irksome.

Basically, it seems, as Taff said, like editing is merely a portion of the service, not the main service.

Further reading indicates that you could use your own services. The text is choppy and doesn't flow. It includes jargon best explained elsewhere, and it's wrong! Text in images is not ideal, the penalties for accessibility, usability, and search engine performance are huge.

Quote: Yes, mmy site definitely needs a sharper focus. But the issue I'd really like to address in this thread is the one I raised already. Why do site owners/operators neglect the quality of their copy?

With all due respect, this thread is taking the same path as a lengthy one I started in another development forum. Although I appreciate any useful input members may have on ememi.com, let's pretend I don't have a website. I'm not asking how mmy site can be improved, how I can market more effectively, or anything else about how I can improve the operation of mmy business.

Again, I'm asking why 99% of the websites I come across would clearly benefit from a high-quality, affordable CE service ... and yet they fail to buy it. Not just from mme--from anyone.

As I said, I think there's a BIG clue in the way people react to the free work I give them. Sees to mme that's an accepted business practice: free samples.

A lot of the reaction I get is that I've somehow insulted people. Can't understand that because I'm friendly and humble. And as I asked earlier, why do people often decide they want to KEEP their misspelled words and clearly improper punctuation and grammar? Seems quite neurotic to mme.

Suzanne, I'll make an exception for you and invite you to give mme an example of "choppy text that doesn't flow." I'm not a professional copywriter, so I'm sure mmy presentation there could be improved on. Any suggestions? Of course, bear in mind mmy point that I'd be asking the Q I'm after in this thread even if I had no website.

[Fwiw, as I see things, I don't really specialize in charging people a lot money to rewrite their text (a very expensive process). I'm looking to get their marketing vehicle back on the road with an inspection sticker at a very affordable price so they can get back and forth from work. I rewrote a lot of the text on Web Xpertz. It's not all that good, but it's a big improvement on what the talented developers/programmers had up there originally.]

I never suggested that imaged text is "ideal," merely that it can overcome the way a "browser and platform with preferences affects a document's display." As I note, "[with HTML,] authors can determine the content but not the presentation of their work."

Here are a couple of examples of what I'm referring to:

http://www.webmaster-forums.net/images/logo3.gif

http://www.zerocattle.com/images/comingsoon.gif

http://www.webmaster-forums.net/images/banners/suzanne1.gif

Well in the case of banners, lol, there isn't much you can do. Those aren't there because text won't work (as you imply in your text), but because, well, they are images. Designed as images, to be images. The purely visual is their function. They complement, but do not replace, the accompanying text.

Re your copy: It is never a good idea to reveal the process while selling the solution.

To answer the main question, focussed textual content is vital to both the user and the search engine. Headings, clear sentences, et cetera help convey meaning to both human eyes and computer spiders.

Why aren't people buying copyediting? Because they don't see/understand the value in real terms (ROI) -- it's your job to sell them on the idea that having clear, sensible textual content improves their customer relations or sales or feedback acquisition, whatever their primary goal of the text is in the first place.

If they cannot identify the goal of the text, you can clearly see that the text is useless fluff.

What I said here:

Quote: Originally posted by Suzanne
Remove everything that doesn't sell you. Period. Be ruthless. Build another site for your ramblings and theories and happy chatter. On the business site, cut to the chase.

Also, examples. You need examples. Provide crap copy and great copy. Problem, solution.

... is generic advice. It's true for ANY site. If the customer cannot see an immediate benefit, they will not purchase the service/goods.

So, what are the benefits of copy-editing?

1. clarity
2. improved comprehension
3. better search engine rankings
4. improved or revealed business focus (leading to higher sales, or lower support costs)
5. reduced bandwidth costs (most copy-editing involves cutting away crap)
6. better structured information architecture, search and retrieval, easier to update, et cetera

Why would I hire you (generic copy editor) to do these things?

[Your answer goes here. Hint: DEMONSTRATE why your service will make them happier, better in bed, richer, and able to eat rich foods again.]

Also, when content is written by the site owners, they have the sin of pride going against you. They fall in love with their words and their work and are afraid that they will lose their voice, their uniqueness if someone edits their copy.

As anyone who's a professional knows, this is 110% bullshit, however it doesn't sound like you're dealing with professionals, who are (ostensibly) capable of detachment, but rather entrepreneurs and cowboys who are flying by the seat of their pants.

When I'm teaching creative writing, I caution against falling in love with your own work, and advocate (strongly) getting critiques. I encourage my students to think of their work as rough diamonds, and that it needs to be cut in order to shine.

Quote: Originally posted by Suzanne

Well in the case of banners, lol, there isn't much you can do.

In the context I brought it up, I don't think it's at all relevant that that image is being used as a banner. It's imaged text.

What about the other images? You said there are "huge penalties" for using imaged text. As I said, I only noted that a developer could get exactly the display desired by using it.

Quote: Re your copy: It is never a good idea to reveal the process while selling the solution.

Are you saying you're a copywriter? Can't you point to one way in which it could be improved? What process are you talking about?

I give away free copyedits in development fora all the time. Something tells mme members aren't picking up any secrets.

Or do you simply want mme to pay for your expertise? Well, I admit I was looking for suggested improvements, but can you indicate a weakness in the "flow" of the text on mmy site? I'm sure you must have noticed something that caused you describe it as "choppy."

Since you seem to have confidence that I won't take your constructive criticism the wrong way, I'll make mmy point about CE'ing by commenting on the first two documents I looked at on the sites you have in your signature.

On http://www.zerocattle.com/

"Thankfully, our wonderful customers have provided kept us ..." - Is something missing there?

on http://www.synapticimpulse.com/about.php

"... from sales to ordering to bookkeeping to show & window displays, to show setup ..." - One word as a noun.

"... published poem in university publication, The Phoenix, in 1992.

"... but kept active in fabric and textile art through out my life. ..." - Do you mean "throughout"?

Quote: To answer the main question, focussed textual content is vital to both the user and the search engine. Headings, clear sentences, et cetera help convey meaning to both human eyes and computer spiders.

I don't follow. What "main question" is that answering?

Quote: Why aren't people buying copyediting? Because they don't see/understand the value in real terms (ROI) -- it's your job to sell them on the idea that having clear, sensible textual content improves their customer relations or sales or feedback acquisition, whatever their primary goal of the text is in the first place.

This is the "show me evidence of a profitable return" point I mentioned earlier. Doesn't sloppy copy reflect poorly on the professionalism of a site owner? If not, why do professionally operated businesses pay to have their marketing documents edited? Seems like just common sense.

Here's the argument I make at Sperts:

http://www.webxpertz.biz/copyedit.php

Quote: If they cannot identify the goal of the text, you can clearly see that the text is useless fluff.

You described the text on mmy site as "ramblings and theories and happy chatter." Is it also "useless fluff"?

Quote: Basically, it seems, as Taff said, like editing is merely a portion of the service, not the main service.

Well, CE'ing is indeed only one of the development services sold through ememi.com. I agree that I would probably be better off giving a lot more (perhaps exclusive) focus to CE'ing, but was the original copy (published at a time when I was trying to sell other services) "useless" back then?

I agree that stuff doesn't have a "business" and "sales" focus. But tbh, I think your description of it is pretty ridiculous.

But again, as interesting as all this is to mme, it still does not address the question I'm raising in this thread.

You list a set of benefits to copyediting. I suppose I agree with the first two, but I see them as a means to an end. Well-written copy communicates a message effectively and creates an atmosphere of professionalism. It gives the impression that the author pays attention to detail and takes his/her work seriously--something a customer will be looking for, I figure.

SEO could be affected in some ways, but I'd say only if keywords are misspelled.

Your fourth and sixth points would seem to be more related to rewriting or developmental editing. This is, as I said earlier, much more expensive than CE'ing. It's what I've started doing for the Sperts copy.

I agree it's a harder sell for another reason besides cost. Many authors are indeed reluctant (mistakenly so, as you point out) to have their work subjected to major revisions. The goal should be the best possible copy, although that becomes subjective at some point.

I don't think a CE would be removing enough bytes to affect download time.

Quote: Why would I hire you (generic copy editor) to do these things?

You wouldn't. You'd hire a CE to perform the functions I've outlined:

1) keeping the reader's focus on the message; not having the analysis of what you're saying interrupted by flaws in the text

2) conveying an image of professionalism

An example would be the doc discussed in this thread.

For the record, I'm confident I can improve the writing in ways unrelated to CE'ing on just about all the small business sites I look at. I thought I was going after the easy money, but there seems to be an obstacle. I find it in the reasoning ability of site owners.

Imaged text is no good for a websites main text as the seach engines cannot read/crawl it and also you can't change the size of it to make it easier to read, if someone views the site with images turned off they wouldn't see anything at all, increases site opening times, etc, etc...

I never said the "main text" should be imaged.

Does anyone have an opinion about why site owners don't buy CE services they require? Why developers don't want to subcontract with a CE to provide that service to their clients?

I would say that a lot of site owners/businesses don't buy CE services as they don't see as a necessary expense. Most of my customers moan about the costs of web hosting etc, which are necessary to have the wesbite online in the first place, they wont pay for anything extra!!

Quote: they don't see as a necessary expense

I agree. Do you think they're right?

I wouldn't pay for it but then I don't rely on my site to bring in work as I don't need it to. As for business sites they should be well written and get the message across but I leave the text up to the clients and if they are happy that it says what they want it to, and as someone else said it is generally what they use in printed material, then I'll leave it as is.

Do you build sites? If so, wouldn't you want to earn extra money by subcontracting a CE service and then marking up the fee? And wouldn't that make your business more attractive to some clients as a one-stop service?

You say you don't need your site to bring in business. But do you want to publish documents that make it more difficult for your readers to focus on your message? Don't you want to convey a professional image?

You know, mmi, you write too damn much. Ironic, that coming from me.

Anyway:

1. Main question, posed by you: Is the text on your site important?. You'll note it's the subject of the thread as well.

2. Second question, posed by you: what's up with that?, by which I gathered you meant why are people not falling all over themselves to take advantage of copy editing services at no cost to themselves?

***

It is never a good idea to reveal the process while selling the solution.

You talk about copy-editing, and HTML display problems, in the same sentence. This is not focus, and it reveals more to the client than the client needs to know at that time. It's a tenet of good writing that each sentence has one subject. Ideally, each paragraph has one subject or theme as a whole. (This one's theme is that clarity is achieved through single focus sentences or paragraphs -- the theme does not need to be overtly stated.)

***

Thanks for the typo checks. Out of hundreds of pages, I'm glad there weren't more. I don't think that minor grammatical/spelling errors reflect poorly on anyone. Major ones, lack of focus, yes! But not minor ones.

That said, now that they are identified, I will fix them!

***

Quote: You described the text on mmy site as "ramblings and theories and happy chatter." Is it also "useless fluff"?

Er, yes. To be more precise, I was being general in that things that are not selling the service are useless fluff. If you can provide a rationale why they help sell the service, then they aren't. If you can't, they are.

An example would be Martha Stewart -- all the little asides about her family, her pets, her life, they are serve to demonstrate her legitimacy in her field. For Lynette Jennings, it'd be useless fluff. Martha is selling her style, her way of living, Lynette is selling other people's products and ideas.

***

I think that how you sell the service makes a big difference. In most cases here, for instance, you come off as defensive and argumentative. If you approached it differently, would people be more or less willing to discuss it? Because of the subjective nature of writing, I think one's personality and presence (as an author or editor) really affects the writing.

Quote:
Well-written copy communicates a message effectively and creates an atmosphere of professionalism. It gives the impression that the author pays attention to detail and takes his/her work seriously [...] You'd hire a CE to perform the functions I've outlined:

1) keeping the reader's focus on the message; not having the analysis of what you're saying interrupted by flaws in the text

2) conveying an image of professionalism

That is your distilled sales pitch. The rest is fluff. Useless fluff. Expanding on these key points is good, don't get me wrong, but you need to make it clear that you're expanding on them.

Copy-editing is more than grammar and spell-checking, it's helping the client focus the sales pitch.

I don't want you to pay me for my expertise, but I do want you to try to understand what I'm saying without defensiveness and argumentativeness. You can disagree, please! But do try to see what I'm saying first.

Quote: Originally posted by Suzanne

1. Main question, posed by you: Is the text on your site important?. You'll note it's the subject of the thread as well.

Thanks, I guess I should have noticed that. Actually mmy main Q here is "why don't site owners buy required CE services?"

Quote: 2. Second question, posed by you: what's up with that?, by which I gathered you meant why are people not falling all over themselves to take advantage of copy editing services at no cost to themselves?

You gather quite incorrectly. I'm asking "what's up" with people undervaluing CE'ing and reacting as they do. I outlined that in the three paragraphs preceding the Q.

Fwiw, I don't want people to "fall all over themselves to take advantage of" free edits. I want them to pay for high-quality, affordable edits they need. I find your tone here to be characteristically sarcastic and insulting--not what I would expect from a forum moderator.

Quote: You talk about copy-editing, and HTML display problems, in the same sentence.

Which sentence is that?

Quote: Thanks for the typo checks. Out of hundreds of pages, I'm glad there weren't more.

As I said, I looked at only TWO pages and found errors on them. I didn't edit your blog because that seems by its nature to be less formal.

Quote: I don't think that minor grammatical/spelling errors reflect poorly on anyone.

Is a missing word or phrase, one that renders a sentence unintelligible, a "minor error"?

I think a series of errors does reflect poorly on the professionalism of the publisher. I'd say that's why successful commercial publishers spend money having their product copyedited/proofread.

Quote: If you can provide a rationale why they help sell the service, then they aren't [useless fluff]. If you can't, they are.

In those pages, I'm discussing what a client will need in a website and mmy perspective on how it should provided. I agree, as I keep saying, that it could use a sharper focus on selling services. But fwiw, I find the casual, informational tone to be a step up from the marketing buzzwords and sales schlock found on many dev sites. I think your exaggerated description of that material as useless fluff and "ramblings and theories and happy chatter" is, again, simply ridiculous.

Martha Stewart will soon be "selling her style" from a federal prison. When she's released, you can ask her if she "just got out."

Quote: I think that how you sell the service makes a big difference. In most cases here, for instance, you come off as defensive and argumentative. If you approached it differently, would people be more or less willing to discuss it? Because of the subjective nature of writing, I think one's personality and presence (as an author or editor) really affects the writing.

Perhaps you could point to examples of this. I may well respond somewhat defensively to your posts in mmy threads, Suzanne. I try not to. But as I've said, imo you're really quite obnoxious to mme.

You dump all over mmy writing, without cause as I see it. And your tone in general toward mme can only be a serious disservice to this forum. I choose that word because I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt in assuming you actually are trying to be helpful.

Quote: Copy-editing is more than grammar and spell-checking

I never suggested it was limited to that.

Quote: it's helping the client focus the sales pitch

As I said earlier, I think most of that involves copywriting and developmental editing--more expensive, in theory more difficult to sell.

Quote: I don't want you to pay me for my expertise, but I do want you to try to understand what I'm saying without defensiveness and argumentativeness. You can disagree, please! But do try to see what I'm saying first.

I'd say I do see what you're saying. Again, I don't think I'm being defensive. I think you're being insulting.

E.g., I might think you have an absurdly exaggerated opinion of your writing skills. If I did, I wouldn't say so if you posted a thread asking why people aren't buying services related to fabric arts you might be trying to sell.

Okey doke, I'm officially lost now. What is the question, has it been answered?

N.B.: I didn't say that your text was chatter, et al, I said that that type of text is ineffective when trying to sell a service or product.

Quote: Originally posted by mmi

I know people work hard to have their text look good. Isn't it a mistake to fail to invest a little money to really get there?

Quote: Originally posted by mmi

But the issue I'd really like to address in this thread is the one I raised already. Why do site owners/operators neglect the quality of their copy?

Quote: Originally posted by mmi

I'm not asking how mmy site can be improved, how I can market more effectively, or anything else about how I can improve the operation of mmy business.

Again, I'm asking why 99% of the websites I come across would clearly benefit from a high-quality, affordable CE service ... and yet they fail to buy it. Not just from mme--from anyone.

Quote: Originally posted by mmi

And as I asked earlier, why do people often decide they want to KEEP their misspelled words and clearly improper punctuation and grammar?

Quote: Originally posted by mmi

Does anyone have an opinion about why site owners don't buy CE services they require? Why developers don't want to subcontract with a CE to provide that service to their clients?

Quote: Originally posted by mmi

Actually mmy main Q here is "why don't site owners buy required CE services?

And while it's surely off-topic, I'm still curious as to what you found "choppy' about the copy on ememi.com. You pointedly noted that a sentence "shouldn't have more than one subject" and observed that I "talk about copy-editing, and HTML display problems, in the same sentence." I asked what sentence you were referring to. I still don't know.

Quote: Originally posted by Suzanne

I didn't say that your text was chatter

Not that it's important, but you could 'a fooled mme.

Quote: Originally posted by Suzanne

Build another site for your ramblings and theories and happy chatter. On the business site, cut to the chase.

Quote: Originally posted by Suzanne

That is your distilled sales pitch. The rest is fluff. Useless fluff.

Boyo you like taking things out of context!

However, in the interests of ending this trainwreck:

It's an age old complaint that clients don't put enough energy into their content. This is not a new thing. Partly, they believe the product/service speaks for itself (it doesn't). Partly they believe that what they wrote IS excellent (it isn't). Partly they believe that high falutin' marketese is better because it *sounds* important (it does to some, but it really doesn't). Partly they believe that writing isn't hard (it is).

As for why they won't hire someone, see above. They don't think they need to. While you and I can see that there is a direct relationship between the quality of the writing and the reputation of the company, they cannot. They cannot see a direct dollar value between the money they spend on your services and the money they save/make elsewhere.

If you find the trick to convincing clients who are not in the publishing business of the value of a copy editor, do let us know!

Oh, and I replied via pm to the specifics on your site. It's the first paragraph on the copy edit page that I was speaking about. My apologies for not stating that explicitly, it seemed very obvious to me, but sometimes, ah, fickle brains, what is obvious to one is not obvious to another.

Suzanne has now sent mme the following PM. Since I don't feel a need to be protected from someone as she says, "picking on mme," I'll post it here. I was simply asking questions and describing a tone in her responses that seems obvious to mme. I certainly don't want to come across in a negative way because I don't think that would be living up to mmy responsibility as a forum member. So I'll accept the idea that no disrespect was intended.

Quote: Choppy text

I figured this would be better privately, so you don't feel I'm picking on you.

quote [from mmy site]:
When producing for the internet, authors can determine the content but not the presentation of their work. Web pages are laid out with HTML (Hyper-Text Markup Language). This process does not offer the level of control enjoyed by print designers. Each viewer's client set-up (browser and platform with preferences) affects a document's display. [You can get around this constraint to some extent by placing text in image files.] To perform properly, many HTML files require some degree of hand-tagging.

This is the first paragraph about copy-editing. As a client reading this, I see that you're talking about my HTML code, something I may or may not know anything about.

I don't think HTML is an obscure topic. Moreover, to those in the audience who are unfamiliar with it, I explain what it is. If I went into more detail, it seems to mme you could (in this case, perhaps correctly) criticize the copy as being unnecessarily detailed.

Quote: Additionally, I'm not sure what your point is in the paragraph -- you will fix the presentation of my copy? That seems to not be copy-editing, but rather production work. I have no idea what hand tagging is, and I still don't know what it has to do with copy editing.

The paragraph introduces the idea that I provide a service that corrects shortcomings both in content and display (as I state explicitly in the next paragraph).

Quote: The choppy part is how many ideas and concepts that you put in one paragraph.

I don't think it's got too many "ideas and concepts" in it. I am being brief. I don't see that as a flaw, esp. in this context.

I had originally planned to link to a page containing the argument in http://www.webxpertz.biz/copyedit.php but I now seek work through the Sperts site.

Quote: Regardless, it doesn't have anything to do with copy editing. It's all about how the copy displays, not how the copy reads.

It has everything to do with the service I provide. You're saying the page is about "copyediting." Its title is "Editing Websites." If the text is seriously flawed, using your arguments regarding search engines (which I find lacking), why is that page ranked #2 in Google on editing websites?

To indicate what I mean about SE rankings, what do you think of the #1 site?

http://www.geocities.com/websitesediting/

Quote: Granted display is important, but that's what the designer/producer is for, not the copy-editor. Even if you're providing those services, you need to keep them distinct on the site.

Quote: I provide both services as an editor. That page includes the term "copyediting" only is the slogan at the bottom.

Quote: http://www.theslot.com/copyeditors.html seems to sum up what a copy editor is. Is this wrong?

Again, I edit web pages--I don't just copyedit them. That combination of services, achievable because of mmy knowledge of coding, is the specialization that I hope will make mmy business easily marketable. I admit I'll have trouble selling if I can't figure out why people won't buy.

===========

In response to your last post:

What am I taking out of context? As I've said, I agree your opinion of the copy on ememi.com is both off-topic and not a major concern to mme, but I do think you've described it as I've indicated.

The rest of your answer, while I appreciate it, seems again to be related to copywriting and a deeper level of editing. How do spelling, punctuation, and grammatical errors fit into that analysis? As I've said here more than once, I figure I'd be up against it trying to convince people they chould pay me (at least) $25/hr to rewrite their copy (as I'm doing for Sperts). Why should I need to "convince" people of the importance of correcting fundamental errors like misspelled words, flawed punctuation, and improper grammar?

Quote: It's the first sentence on the copy edit page that I was speaking about.

As you say in your PM, it seems it's the paragraph you find wanting, not the sentence. Copyediting is not mentioned in that sentence, or even, as I've noted, in that paragraph. Or is mmy brain "fickle"?

So you have your answer then?

I think you two should do the wet noodles at six paces thing

to add my two cents worth, My spelling and grammer sucks and admit I use word or whatever to check my spelling and grammer but a lot of words we spelt differently (tire - tyre, color - colour etc) so I can get away with a few misspelt words here and there
My writing style is "fluffly" but was trained sharp and to the point (photo journalist) but to me proper isn't always right, I mean, sure I could use less words and put heaps of big words in a sentence or paragraph and impress people (would impress me for sure lol) but some people need the walk around, slow fluffy method to understand things.
Ever read a book or something and didn't understand a sentence or statement only to find out later on what it was about, if it was fluffed up more it should of been understood the first time.
I should tighten up my style or get someone to do it for me but it's time and/or money, copy editors dont come cheap and if your doing a not for profit site with a couple of hundred pages it would cost a fortune.

The above is a good example of fluff writing could of probably did it in half the space but hey, my fingers do the walking

I think that brings up the very real topic of voice. Some people are chattier than others, and their writing reflects it. That's neither wrong nor right, that's their style, their voice and to some extent that is beyond grammatical and spelling issues.

However, I wasn't clear before. When I say useless fluff, I mean that it doesn't support the point. If what you write does support it, then whoa, go for it! Write pages! If it's engaging and helps illustrate and compel the reader, don't stop!

If it doesn't, though, be ruthless. Cut it away. Some of what you cut away will be brilliant in its own right, just not in that paragraph or sentence.

Of course I'm not talking about creative writing, prose, letter writing, et cetera, I'm speaking *only* of business copy designed to sell something. Whether written formally or informally, the point of the writing is to sell.

Quote: Originally posted by Busy

I think you two should do the wet noodles at six paces thing

Not violent enough for our North American culture, I'd say. Besides, that metaphor could get mme in trouble with Suzanne's husband. :eek:

Quote: a lot of words we spelt differently (tire - tyre, color - colour etc) so I can get away with a few misspelt words here and there

Those aren't misspelled--they're just not AmE (American English). A good CE would point them out if your goal were to write to an American audience (or simply to use AmE for an international one).

Quote: copy editors dont come cheap and if your doing a not for profit site with a couple of hundred pages it would cost a fortune.

I disagree. Just as you can purchase a solid site design and get it professionally developed at an affordable price (if you know where to go), the same is true of CE'ing. There are many in the business who simply don't have the market power to be able to demand a fee commensurate to the quality of their work.

I recently completed a project for a publisher that involved a moderate level edit of approximately 15,000 words. I should have been able to charge several hundred dollars. Instead, I had to settle for only a few hundred. And I found a LOT of errors and flaws.

On writing style, I realize mine is sort of "academic." Makes sense--that's mmy background. I'd say that's completely "beyond grammatical and spelling issues."

But I think you may be a bit narrow, Suzanne, in your view of what makes effective "business copy designed to sell something." Yes, the material should "support the point." But you seem to be saying that it needs to be "hard-hitting" and "boiled-down."

I think you hit the nail on the head with

Quote: If it's engaging and helps illustrate and compel the reader, don't stop!

Quote: Originally posted by Suzanne

So you have your answer then?

Well, the only answer I've been able to come up with so far (I lost this in the title of mmy last post when I got timed out and then forgot to put it back in) is that people are being irrational. I've had a variety of other answers offered here and elsewhere, but they all seem lacking.

I think this has important implications for mmy marketing plan. Getting in front of people isn't enough; making a convincing argument isn't enough; offering a high-quality, affordable service isn't enough.

I need to figure out how I can efficiently reach an audience that takes a rational approach to making business decisions. This is a work in progress at the moment.

No, the writing shouldn't be necessarily hard-hitting and boiled down, the points should be.

As I said before, if it supports the point, it stays. If it obfuscates it or is otherwise irrelevant to the point, out it goes.

Best not get my husband involved, if you can help it. German+Irish heritage doesn't make for the longest temper in the world.

I agree that an author should not obfuscate.

(I answered your previous Q in an edit of mmy last post.)

I would say keep things simple.

Try to have a ferw things to say per page, and say them very clearly.

I am the worst type of web-surfer, totally impatient. If I go to a site, and it loads slow, or if there and mounds of mounds of text, and if I cannot see what I want right away, I leave. So I would say keep pages more focused an few things, and say those very clearly. If you really want to provide deeper content, do some "more" type links for those who like to read....

Hey hostito

Thanks for your response. I think the points you make are quite valid, but they don't really address the issue I'm raising here. Tbh, I think this thread is a pretty ugly read, so I guess I can understand that.

I'll try again to make mmy point. Look at the copy on a professional business site. You rarely find errors/weaknesses in the spelling, grammar, and punctuation. There's a reason for this. The text is professionally edited. These businesses pay to have it done.

Anyone with an online business can achieve this same professional appearance. It's not expensive--you just need to know the right person.

Why this element of web design is so undervalued by the great majority of small business site owners/operators is beyond mme. I'd argue they're simply being foolish. I'm always in search of other reasonable explanations. As a seller of a copyediting service, I've found foolishness to be an obstacle that's very difficult to overcome.

I see, I am sad that I missed your point

I agree totally, I feel the same way about the editing of text and such...

One wonders if it is foolishness, or the lack of approriate resources (staff, talent, etc.).

I also feel the same way about graphic designers and web site design. If you can afford it, you should always hire a professional. Some sites do not achieve their potential because folks understimate the importance of design, form and presentation.

The question of cost is certainly a vaild one. But effective copyediting is not expensive. I'd say the rates vary from around $3/page to perhaps as much as $10/page, with a page being 250 words. If you have 1000 words on your site, that means you'd pay between twelve and forty dollars. Most service providers will include some charge for overhead on small jobs like that, so I figure you'd end up paying, say, $25-75.

Is fifty bucks too much to pay to avoid looking sloppy and unprofessional? Do successful small business owners make a careful ROI analysis of expenditures like that? Or do they simply use their common sense?

Forgive me if this has been mentioned before. It just struck me that you're calculating the cost of one job. Trouble is, content changes all the time. And often, in bits (pun not intended).

Do people really want to hire a copyeditor to review every little change they make?

I'm not talking about the small one-word corrections, but changes by the paragraph, or page. Perhaps it's changes like these that collect to make bad copy overall?

Basically, I'm pointing out the copyeditor's place in the process of an update (which I'm suggesting the secondary way of sneaking bad copy into a site). When making a site live, as it is, it might be a good idea to have a CE go over the whole thing. Does that work for updates?

The added step of CEing seems to be too much hassle. Especially when you consider the time factor -- updates like these are meant to go live instantaneously.

If clients are turned off by this, then they may also see that, gradually, any CE you do originally will be phased out by their own updates. Could that not be a reason why they don't bother with any CE at all?

I think that touches on a reality that perhaps others don't consider -- most small businesses do not think their copy is going to last years. Most companies redesign in an endless cycle, and when they do, all their content gets redesigned as well.

Frankly I'd rather pay $$ for a copyWRITER than an editor. If I'm going to be doing the writing, I'm more likely to do the editing as well. For better or for worse.

Quote: Originally posted by Abhishek Reddy

Do people really want to hire a copyeditor to review every little change they make?

You can probably work out an affordable maintenance contract.

Quote: updates like these are meant to go live instantaneously.

Some services provide very fast turnaround times.

Quote: If clients are turned off by this, then they may also see that, gradually, any CE you do originally will be phased out by their own updates. Could that not be a reason why they don't bother with any CE at all?

I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying that, e.g., you wouldn't want to wash your car because it's just gonna get dirty again? Your dishes? Your laundry?

Life has its chores; sometimes we're better off employing others to handle them. Does that make sense?

Quote: Originally posted by Suzanne

most small businesses do not think their copy is going to last years. Most companies redesign in an endless cycle, and when they do, all their content gets redesigned as well.

Do you wait until you need new carpeting in order to avoid vacuuming?

Quote: Frankly I'd rather pay $$ for a copyWRITER than an editor.

As I'm sure I've mentioned here earlier, effective copywriting is very expensive. It can directly generate a lot of sales/profits, so you can recover those costs fairly easily. Copyediting is useful in helping you avoid looking like an idiot.

My theory is that people who need to buy CE'ing and don't typically are idiots.

I don't think money has anything to do with this. The cost of CE'ing is very low. Mmy experience indicates many people tend to be quite defensive about errors/weaknesses in their text.

Note the different reactions elicited by mmy attempt to contribute to the community in this thread, to which I referred earlier. I'd say Mark took my suggestions in the positive spirit they were offered. If I'm seen as somehow "attacking" or "seeking to humiliate" people by trying to help them without compensation, I guess I can understand why they wouldn't want to pay for it.

I can't program to save mmy life. Does this make mme somehow "inferior" to those who can?

Quote: I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying that, e.g., you wouldn't want to wash your car because it's just gonna get dirty again? Your dishes? Your laundry?

But do I hire a carwasher to clean the little speck of dirt over by the corner of the bumper? Why I wouldn't hire a carwasher to clean spots even if they were all over my windshield...

Consider how a car degrades over time, in terms of cleanliness. Just leaving it in the garage and letting collect dust and moisture could ruin it. Not so with website copy. The only element it is subjected to is the owner. Imagine now that the car remained in pristine condition, but suffered wear only when the owner changed its parts. That's more like a website. Obviously, not a good analogy.

Washing the car every so often is more like hiring someone to smooth the anti-aliasing on every character a website owner changes, assuming again that the car only collects dirt when and where the owner affects it.

Looking at it another way, maintaining a website is more fluid. Content is changing. One could say that hiring a copyeditor to go over every update is like hiring a panelbeater (mechanic) to change the door every time a bit or dirt finds its way upon it.

Of course, the best analogy is something of a synthesis of the above. I'll leave that for you to figure out.

Quote: Copyediting is useful in helping you avoid looking like an idiot.

Is it only about appearance? The English language, I'm afraid, is hardly visual when it comes to utilitarian communication. If appearance is on the website owner's mind, he'd more likely hire a graphics designer, I'd think. (Hence the silly reference to anti-aliasing above.)

Quote: I don't think money has anything to do with this. The cost of CE'ing is very low.

Perhaps it's the symbolic nature of the cost. It may seem unnecessary (the cost being greater than zero).

Imo, trouble with copyediting is that fast isn't good enough. If CEing is a completely (ok, virtually) transparent and almost immediate process, then great. That's probably why spellcheckers are so much more popular. I'm guessing that many of the major sites with their own copy have in-house editors. Working outside mightn't be a good idea.

Quote: I can't program to save mmy life. Does this make mme somehow "inferior" to those who can?

Funny you should mention this. I'm exploring the idea now that copyediting is unsuited to the web. Unsuited to all but the major sites, who, as I mention above, may have their own editors. Typos in programming shine bright red at the crossing, bringing all traffic to a halt. Typos in copy don't, save for a few obsessive-compulsive English teachers and certain copyeditors who might bring the issue up. The rest of us just carry on. We can grasp the message where a parser cannot. That's why //comments aren't checked for semi-colons at EOL.

Errors in documents that serve to document need to be fixed. Errors in dynamic documents that serve to communicate a theme with no real concern for micromechanisms don't need to be fixed.

I apologise if this post is not entirely cohesive. I wrote it in parts over a very long period.

This thread has been going on for a while and some how I have missed it.

I may be off topic from the last couple of posts but I don't think that most people would pay for copy editing because they could probably get someone to do it for nothing.

Also, you might consider this. If you are looking for people here on this forum to use you for these services, you may want to think about how all of your double m's might appear to them. Would you use someone who regularly mispells words? Just an observation.