Similar, but different, question than Renegade's...

Hosting, you mean? I think this tends to vary depending on what the client has already, and what kind of techie knowledge they have etc. Sometimes clients will already have their site hosted somewhere(particularly if you're doing a redesign of an old site). A lot of freelancers sign up with a hosting company to be a reseller, so they would actually sell hosting to the client along with their web design services etc.

Steve, I'm not sure I fully understand your question but I'll try to answer it anyways I'll explain the process...

Let's say your dad's friend wants a website. You'll call him up or go meet with him and talk about what kind of website it is that he wants. You'll take notes and discuss the price. Once you've come to an agreement you will go back to your office/home and start creating (desiging/programmin) the website. You can show him the website a few times during the progress to get feedback if you'd like. Once the website is done you need somewhere to put it online. For this you need to make use of a web hosting company. Depending on your needs (diskpace, bandwidth, emails, etc) a web hosting package can cost a few dollars or thousands of dollars per month. You'll probably need a domain too if your client doesn't already have one. You can either have register a domain yourself or register it through your web host (have them register it for you).

I hope this answers your question(s)...

Cheers.

I think you've both answered the question very well. At least I know more than I did before. Thanks.

Now, 2 more sort of quick questions:

1. Do I personally have to have MY OWN web host to get rid of the advertising on the sites, or can I just suggest (as an affiliate perhaps) a web-hosting service to my client? I don't care if the ads are on my site(s), but my clients might not want them on theirs.

2. Megan, does "reseller" mean "affiliate?"

you'd be better off getting a reseller account.
a reseller account means you get say 100mb of web space from the hosting firm and then you can put say 10 web sites on there, its up to you how you do it, could be 10 mb each, could be 1 50mb and 2 25mb accounts.
each account would have to have their own domain name.

the good thing about reseller accounts is they cost less than several seperate accounts and you resell the space for as much as you want.

the other way is if you buy web space and give these "customers" shares or space on your site and under your domain name (either folders or sub folders), like tom.yoursite.com or yoursite.com/tom/

If you are serious about starting a business site, don't use any of the free sites, with the banners and pop ups etc they make you look cheap.

Well, I can use WebTv's pagebuilder for "FREE" as long as I pay my internet bill. It does not have the banners and pop-ups so I can avoid "looking" cheap . . . in the eye of the beholder.

Now that takes care of MY personal web-design business site. However, do I still use the pagebuilder service to make my clients' sites? If not, what do they do?

Maybe it'd be easier to just charge them to write out the code for them and let them take it home and type it in for themselves (hehe) on their own site server. Naaah, just kidding.

If I could just SEE how this is done, I know it'd be much easier than trying to have it explained. But then you gotta know where to go to see it.

Also, if this helps any, I DO NOT intend on paying for a web-hosting service at this time (other than the pagebuilder thing that is built into WebTV), but my future clients, should I have any, may wish to do so. I guess I'm sort of asking "How should they go about this for their OWN personal needs based on how I'm going about it for my OWN needs?"

To be taken seriously as a website designer you need your own domain name hosted on proper webspace with a very professional website, which is generally the first impression the client gets of you. If your website looks ameteurish then they are unlikely to hire you.

My advise is to forget about WebTV Pagebuilder, use an html editor on a pc if you can't code by hand and get a decent graphics program. You are not going to be able to design websites for clients otherwise.

If you want to have a business as a website design and be taken seriously then you have to put some money into it to look the part, just the same as any other business!

Usually, if you get a free web host they put ads on your website since that is how they make money, but with paid web hosting there will be no ads on your website unles you put them there yourself.

As busy said, with a reseller account you buy a large amount of space and bandwidth which you can split up in smaller accounts for your clients. Another thing about getting a reseller account is that you will have to bill your customers and also provide support to them. The web host will most likely be transparent to your clients unles requested otherwise.

So, for instance, right now I have "free" sites in Angelfire with the pop-up ads/banners on them. You're saying that, should I decide to make my own business site, I should DEFINITELY upgrade to a paid Angelfire service to get rid of those ads?

Actually, I seem to be doing rather well with the programming and layout of sites without the html editors or graphics programs. I feel that, should a client want an extremely fancy site, they should go to someone who will charge them much more than I would.

The only sites I would likely be doing might be general business sites with only basic programming and maybe less than 5 pages total, so exactly how much should I invest for just that?

I don't know if you really need an online presence at all for that. If you can squeeze out a few jobs through "offline" networking, then you will have got some experience, built a portfolio, and set up good contacts. After that, I think, you could look at actually getting a good portfolio/services site up as your business should have grown a little and you'd have a few sites under your belt.

In my opinion, to be taken seriously in this business you need a professional online presence. How are you going to sell potential clients on this concept if you don't subscribe to it yourself?

With regards to hosting, an alternative to reselling is to just establish a good working relationship with a reputable host. Many companies will compensate you for this sort of relationship via such things as free hosting for your own site. This leaves you free of responsibilites such as billing, support, initial outlay, etc. Of course, you need to develop some credibility first before a host will be interested in you.

Quote: Originally posted by fiesty_01
Actually, I seem to be doing rather well with the programming and layout of sites without the html editors or graphics programs. I feel that, should a client want an extremely fancy site, they should go to someone who will charge them much more than I would.

Personally, I don't know how far you'll get with this line of thinking. A decent html editor and graphics apps are necessary tools for the creation of the most basic sites, if you are going to do them well.

Quote: Originally posted by fiesty_01
So, for instance, right now I have "free" sites in Angelfire with the pop-up ads/banners on them. You're saying that, should I decide to make my own business site, I should DEFINITELY upgrade to a paid Angelfire service to get rid of those ads?

No, no, no. Forget Angelfire. You'd look around for a reputable hosting company and sign up with them. The service and support will be much better. If you look in the web hosting section of this forum, or at some of the banner ads, or even in some peoples' signatures you'll find links to hosting various companies. Take a look at what they offer and how much you'll have to pay.

If you don't want to go the route of investing in a computer and your own hosting right away, you could wait until you have a few clients and therefore some extra cash. Spending money on business expenses is also a good way to get tax write-offs.

Abhishek: Building a portfolio before getting too serious (and too deep in debt) does make more sense to me.

Taff: What exactly do the html editors and graphics programs do for you? Don't we already know how to do html and at least some graphics programming? I'm afraid that I don't understand this at all.

Megan: Why forget Angelfire (it's actually through Lycos)? I can get enough bandwidth to last me for maybe 5 years or more for a small cost to me each month (I don't remember how much right now).
I'm not planning on creating hundreds and hundreds of sites and taking up lots of bandwidth space the way a large company doing this might.

For example, I might only be doing maybe 100 sites or so a year for small business owners who know nothing about making a website (painters, contractors, etc.). Right now, in my "free" Angelfire service, I have 20MB of space available. After about a year or more or practicing and making my own sites, I've used only around 0.12MB. I do understand that a potential client MAY not want to see pop-ups or banners on my own personal business site, so I would have to upgrade to a paid service to get rid of the ads. Doing this might cost me only around $100-$150 per year on Angelfire. Is that not a good deal?

Please understand that appreciate any input you can give me regarding this. I'm just basically trying to understand the how's and why's right now.

A friend of mine was hosted on the paid yahoo site (no ads) and had her own domain name but when I found out what she was paying and what she got for that money I told her to look for another host. Now she has double the space, bandwidth, pre made scripts, server side stuff (php, mysql ..) web stats and freedom to do as she pleases.

do some checking on hosts, you can get some really good ones for as little as 3.95 a month (39.50 a year), up to the big commerical ones at 3950.00 a month and more.

if you can't write html get a editor like dreamweaver or similar to make the pages and a graphic editor like PSP or similar to make/edit images. You'll always need to edit images, if you client asks to make a site like a brochure you'll end up scanning and trimming images or making logos for them.

if you can do 100 sites a year and charge $1 a site, thats $100 towards hosting, domain name, programs ... etc

I agree completely about being a reseller or at least a host's affiliate.

I would be very careful of using someone else's hosting account to build a site. A simple site perhaps but that's all. If you aren't intimately familiar with all the features and services of the host then it could back-fire on you. Anything from not being able to do wan the client wants (or having to charge much more) to deleting system files from the account.

When we make a contract to build a site we clearly specify the site will be hosted on our servers and may use some features that may not be available on other host's servers. The client is always free to move their site else where after the contract is completed. But the contract says that any costs to reprogram for another server are the clients responsibility and any downtime or loss due to tranfer incompatabilities is not our responsibility.

Right now I have a guy who contracted with us to setup a VBulletin forum on an account and have lots of custom programming. Now he wants to move it to another host with a different OS that doesn't even have MySQL or PHP! I told him he's free to go where every he wants but he'll have to move the files and the DB. We're not going to touch another host's servers. And he bears all the costs and responsibilities for any loss of data, custom programming and/or down time.

Don't mean to be a hard nose. But that's like selling and installing a dishwasher. Then 6 months later the people move and expect you to uninstall, move and reinstall the dishwasher into their new home - for free!

Does "hosted on our servers" mean "hosted on our web host?"

Also, let's say I might only want 50MB of space with my own domain name. Could I get that for as little as $3.95/month? Also, if I were to "put" my clients' sites on this host in a directory or subdirectory, how would their sites name be shown if my name were, say, widgets.com? Would their name look like this: contractor.widgets.com, or something similar?

Busy, could you give me an example of the $3.95/month web host and an example of the $3,950/month web host (although, I'm sure we'll be leaving the $3,950/month one for someone else to have). I have seen one web host that is $7.95/month, but haven't really looked into it much.

Btw, I can write html and some other stuff (mainly JavaScript), but I suppose "editing images (not sure why?)" could pose a problem.

Please remember, I only have WebTV and it does not have a disc. Example: In Angelfire, I basically program a page, check it, then hit the SAVE button and it saves it for meon their site.

Quote: Originally posted by fiesty_01
Taff: What exactly do the html editors and graphics programs do for you? Don't we already know how to do html and at least some graphics programming? I'm afraid that I don't understand this at all.

You'll be able to do a lot more, and more efficiently at that, with a good program. Remember that you've just started building webpages and there's a lot you haven't learned yet. Using the right tools can drastically improve the quality of your work.

Quote: Originally posted by fiesty_01
Megan: Why forget Angelfire (it's actually through Lycos)? I can get enough bandwidth to last me for maybe 5 years or more for a small cost to me each month (I don't remember how much right now).

I just wouldn't trust Angelfire to give you good service, that's all. I haven't looked at their packages, but you could probably get a better deal elsewhere. I'd also be very suspicious of their service and support, not to mention uptime. I've never dealt with angelfire personally, but I remember having a lot of problems in the past trying to access sites on angelfire.

Quote:
For example, I might only be doing maybe 100 sites or so a year for small business owners who know nothing about making a website (painters, contractors, etc.).

Okay, this is a *really* high estimate. That's about 2 sites per week - I don't do this full time, but I would guess that a period of several weeks would be more realistic for *one* site, and that's assuming that everything goes smoothly. You also have to remember that you'll need time for normal business stuff like phoning up clients, keeping your accounts straight, trying to get more clients etc. This also assumes that you can find 100 clients - not an easy thing to do. I'd bet that people around here who have been freelancing full time for years haven't had that many clients in their entire careers.

Quote: Originally posted by fiesty_01
Taff: What exactly do the html editors and graphics programs do for you? Don't we already know how to do html and at least some graphics programming? I'm afraid that I don't understand this at all.

How do you propose to create graphics without a graphics app of some sort? What do you do with the stack of product photos that the client wants on his site? How do you convert the bmp or eps of the company logo into something that can be used on the net?

As far as the html goes - sure you could get by with notepad but that's a little masochistic imo. If you plan to pump out a 100 sites a year, you are going to need some tools to facilitate this.

Just a note that being part of this industry means knowing the building blocks of the web and how they work. WebTV is all very nice, but it's for hobbyists and non-professionals. Really.

To do this professionally trying to use WebTV is like trying to make a feature-length movie with your digital camera's "continuous" setting -- it's severely underpowered to do the job, and isn't even remotely up to the current standards. Actually, it's more like using a film camera, taking lots of shots and trying to merge the shots together into a movie.

If you're serious about doing this, please, please, please learn more about the industry and learn how to do the job properly.

If you only have web tv you're going to get stuck, Say you found a cheap web host, you'd need a ftp program yp upload your files, if you know html well enough you can use notepad to write, otherwise you'll need a editor like dreamweaver, I suppose you could use frontpage (can't believe i'm saying this) if it's on webtv, think it still has ftp program in it. then you'd need an image editor.

check out the banners top of these pages, intersurge for example has plans from $7.50 a month (was the one showing at the time) and check out the domain hosting section of the forums (think thats what its called), but without the previous stuff will be a bit pointless

Fiesty - Again, it depends if you're going to be a reseller (or affiliate) or just work with a host. IMO you might as well be a reseller/affiliate and get some extra income out of it. Either way, if the client doesn't already have a host (which most don't) it means you setting them up with a host of your own choice. Ideally one that you know the services very very well and have trust in.

And by "trust" I mean not only a good price and claimed features but reliability, support and track record that makes you believe they will be around for years to come. Not trying to get off on a tangent but $2/mo hosting sounds great until you start to wonder how can I host provide good reliable services and support for so little and remain in business for the long haul. Believe me, the last thing you want to do is explain to your clients why their site's are down.

First, while I may be new at the business of web-design, I'm certainly not "just starting to build web pages." I have been programming pages for well over a year now. Plus, provided I could allot maybe 4-5 hours per day doing this, I could easily "pump out" at least 3 very nice sites per week . . . each site having perhaps 3-4 page destinations which would also have been created (or programmed) by me. This could be all be done without any "editors," starting with nothing more than a blank page to start entering HTML, JavaScript, or whatever.

As for WebTV, the only real differences I have seen from actual computers are as follows:

1. No disc to download to or upload from.
2. Fairly slow connection speed.
3. Inability of browser to view pages requiring things such as Flash, etc.

I suppose if my clients wanted their own pictures on their site, I could have them scanned by someone else I know, then have them send them to me in, say, jpg or gif format. But I don't believe I would be doing too many (if any) sites requiring pictures of "multiple products." Example: I wouldn't be doing a site similar to Wal-Mart requiring hundreds or thousands of pictures. But I might do a site for "Billy Bob" the plumber who wants maybe one picture (or graphic) of a man in plumber's clothing at the top of his site.

It seems I may have been a bit misleading in stating my goals here. I'm not ever planning on making some of these larger, more involved sites you see on the net (such as this site). The largest site I would likely ever make MIGHT be close to the size of Megan's Canadian gymnastics site.

Suzanne: Please define "up to the current standards" as it relates to knowledge of WebTV (besides the obvious slower connection speed).
Also, I'm am trying to learn more about the industry, but keep ending up with more questions than answers.

Megan: If you haven't looked at the packages offered by Lycos (not Angelfire), why wouldn't you trust them? They seem to be "up to current standards," or am I missing something. I believe the web domain package is from aplus.net (if that's the right name). They offer a web domain for I think $7.99 per year with free web hosting included . . . I also saw info about reseller and affiliate stuff. I mean, why spend $100 a month when $7.99 would (or might) be sufficient? Isn't that similar to paying $359 for a 25" TV at one store when you'll get the exact same satisfaction from buying a different 25" TV from another store for $239 (one that will play and last just as good as the $359 one)? Sort of like brand-name pricing, I guess?

IMO I think anyone going into this now highly competetive business with the attitude of "I'm only going to make small pictureless/graphicless sites in a particular style for only small businesses using one hosting package" is wrong. You may get people using your services but this isn't like 5 years ago where fewer people had used the internet didn't know what sites they liked and were happy paying for very basic sites. I have made a site for a plumber (not called Bob though) and his site has close to 35 pages on it and plenty of pictures of him working and examples, plus the graphics to make a nice looking site. This is what he wanted on the site and not because I suggested it.

I don't want to say you are wrong, you may do well, but I think that in reality to get the type of business you talk about you need to rethink some of your ideas and working practices. People have become used to seeing very nice, professional looking sites for even the smallest one-man-band companies and for any business to succeed you can't be saying 'if they want a flashy site, they can go elsewhere' as they will and then you have no business.

On webtv you have no backup facilities, what if the client wants a copy of their site on CD? What if they come to you with images on disc to be used on the site? You need a pc with all the facilities required in this business.

Personally, I don't see how you could run *any* business these days without a PC in the office, much less a web design firm. Let me tell you, as someone who has been in this business for years, clients *want* a progressive and professional site. Part of the purpose here is that the small guy *can* have a professional presence, comparable to the big guy's, for not too much money.

Quote: Originally posted by fiesty_01
As for WebTV, the only real differences I have seen from actual computers are as follows:

1. No disc to download to or upload from.
2. Fairly slow connection speed.
3. Inability of browser to view pages requiring things such as Flash, etc.

No storage? No ability to run programs? I know that you don't think you need graphics on a site, but I've got at least a half dozen graphics-related apps. Besides that, how about administration? With your anticipated triple digit annual clientele, how do you plan to keep the books, prepare quotations, advertising? How about browser testing? I'm not too familiar with WebTV - does it have a proprietory browser? Do you plan to test in others? Again, I've got 4 browsers installed and an emulator or two.

My word, the list goes on. What about when the client emails you his content in Word or Wordperfect format? What if they zip the file?

I'm just going through the start bar looking at the multitude of software I use on a given day... Font management software? Fonts themselves?

Let me stress, these are not exclusively the tools of some large design firm. I'm a one man operation working from home - these are the tools of the trade, no matter your size.

You will have to define "browser testing" for me to attempt to answer that question. I'm assuming you mean making sure that their browser will read (or show) the content I create? Is that right?

As for a client e-mailing me something in zip format, I have them mail it to my yahoo e-mail address, go to the library, bring it up, print it out, and bring it home.

Graphics: There are many graphics sites on the net where one can go to get things (many are free also).

I'm not undermining all of these design technicalities but, if there are other ways to make things happen, why not try to find them?

If it is TRULY IMPOSSIBLE to use WebTV for this purpose, then that's what I'm trying to find out. However, if it IS POSSIBLE (in some way, whatever it may be), I want to find that out also. Does that make sense?

Web Standards and commonly used technologies --> HTML, XHTML, CSS, JavaScript, XML, XSLT, MySQL, PHP, ASP, JSP, Java, SQLServer, .NET, images (.GIF, .JPG, .PNG), Flash (and other plugins), SVG.

Browser Testing --> MacOS, WinTel, Linux, varieties of Netscape, Opera, IE, ICab, Mozilla.

You're talking to people who have been in the industry for years, and discounting both their experience and their time.

WebTV is a VIEWER, like Netscape, or Internet Explorer. You can build rudimentary pages with it, but they will not stand up to specifications. You can build webpages using Netscape as well (and indeed, many people currently doing this professionally started that way), but they aren't professional level.

Accessibility, usability, standards. A professional (by which I mean someone who does this for money) MUST know what these entail.

Angelfire, WebTV, these are hobbyist tools, for beginners and non-technical people to use for fun. They are not professional tools and they were not designed for professionals to use.

If you are going to do this as a business, please respect the industry standards and don't be one of the people that we end up cleaning up after. Specifically I find it worrying that you are seemingly proud of not having "programmed" any of the sites you have done. This indicates a paucity of knowledge of the basic underpinnings of this industry.

Suzanne, I said that I DID program them. Where did I say that I hadn't programmed them?

Also, for some reason, I was able to view Megan's "Flash" site on WebTV (I didn't think I would be able to view it since it said it required "Flash").

I'm not the only one sounding proud here, either (but I wasn't aware that I sounded that way). People admit that they know little or nothing about WebTV or Angelfire, then turn around and give their "expert" opinion on what they can and can't do. I disagree with that approach. Don't knock it until you try it, in other words.

I have programmed several of my own sites from scratch (my own programming, not an editor's programming) that are just as nice as (or even nicer than) SOME of the ones I've seen on here, if that tells you anything.

Jalem, thank you for making sense.

I haven't posted here on this subject because I agree 100% with what everyone else is trying to get across to you. Especially Suzannes last post.

Now I would like to offer a little advise.

For starters, read these:

Web Pages That Suck
Web Standards FAQ
Top 10 Mistakes of Web Design
Ten Good Deeds
Worst Web Design Mistakes

I'm sorry Fiesty_01, I have misread what you are saying. When you say you don't use an HTML editor, I guess you mean a WSYIWGY editor? Or that you don't use the WebTV Page Builder?

How did you "program" these sites not in an editor without a computer? A blank page in WHAT? You type it all into a text area box in the WebTV Page Builder?

Quote: This could be all be done without any "editors," starting with nothing more than a blank page to start entering HTML, JavaScript, or whatever.

I write my markup (which is not programming) from scratch, same with the JavaScript, PHP and any CGI/Perl work I do. Which is not to say that Editors are not valuable tools -- I've just been doing it longer and have evolved my own system which is very similar to most Editors or Editing Environments on the market today.

I do, however, make use of BBEdit for syntax checking and the online w3c validator for validation. I used to use the htmlvalidator.com when I used a PC, and a lot of people swear by Homesite.

Why?

Reusable code. Being able to store snips and useful bits. Not having a storage disk anywhere would severely limit me. Severely. Not just in not being able to run programs that I use daily (graphics applications to make images, edit photos, crop photos, thumbnail them, apply watermarks, vector apps to make logos, BBEdit for writing scripts and code and markup and CSS), but in storing that information for future use so I don't have to keep it in my head, on a piece of paper, or remember what website I used it for, get it, copy and paste it to use it.

I guess if you were determined enough to do it all through WebTV you could if you have access to an online application that let's you type in whatever you want and save it to any extension.

But without the graphics apps? Can't see it.

fiesty_01, one of the biggest problems you'll have is compatibilty. If you do a search around this forum or any other you'll find this is the biggest issue most people have trouble with. Since our unable to download Netscape or internet explorer or even opera and mozilla you'll be unable to "test" your sites.
I'm fixing a site now for someone that it works great in NS, Opera and mozilla etc but doesn't work in IE (is a CSS table issue).

It could be possible for you to do this on webtv if you have 100% knowledge of all tags and browser compatibility issues, Since you'll be doing this for clients you wont know what browsers and version their customers are using so you'd have to keep to basic HTML with the minimum of CSS and remember tags like thead, label dont work in all browsers, even doing this has issues.
You also have to remember webtv displays differently to the pc

If you can pull it off, I take my hat off to you, I doubt I could ever do it

To Sonia:

WEB PAGES THAT SUCK---This site was like a jungle and really did suck . . . the main reason why I didn't stay on it over a couple of minutes. Very hard to navigate and contained basically a jumbled-up puzzle of links (some of which did not take me where I thought they would).

The other 4 links you posted actually support my arguments. Thank you for that. I always love it when a page CONTAINING misspelled words or bad grammar usage suggests that I shouldn't use misspelled words or bad grammar.

Also, may I offer a friendly critique the left-handed appearance of your Graphiti site . . . how my eyes fell on the middle-right of each paragraph, but didn't seem to "want" to start from the beginning? Also, the Buzzard's Roost site (I believe that was it's name) took me to some Angelfire page. Does this mean that you are using Angelfire as a host, even though you agree "100%" with what everyone else is trying to get across to me?

Hey, if it can be done, I'm gonna try to find a way. If not, I guess I'll have to find another way to do it another way.

I do know that, should I start all of this, I will not be seeking those clients who want a "pile" of pictures on their sites. I would be working the little niche of sites that only require maybe less than 10 pages each.

A simple example of one of these sites might be as follows:

PAGE 1: Bob's Restaurant Home Page
PAGE 2: Bob's menu with prices
PAGE 3: Bob's daily specials.
PAGE 4: Directions to Bob's place of business and how to contact Bob (contact info and store hours might be included on PAGE 1 also to promote ease of navigation).
PAGE 5: Printable coupons (i.e., buy 2 meals, get one at 1/2 price), should Bob want these on the site.

See where I'm coming from here? I wouldn't need all the "tricks" like adding shopping carts, etc. Just enough "tricks" to help someone have web presence, if they feel they might benefit from it.

In other words, you don't go after a rabbit with an elephant gun, unless you just want to blow a big hole in the rabbit for no reason.

fiesty,

I am sorry if I offended you by posting those links. Wasn't my intentions. Granted they are not nice looking sites but that wasn't why I posted them. I intended for you to *read* the *content* and hopefully get some ideas on things that you had questioned in your previous posts. (mainly usablilty and accessibility which are big issue these days)

I also agree that "Web pages that Suck" is a jungle but if you look around they give some great examples of what not to do when creating web sites. Again, just trying to be helpful.

As for the comments on my sites which by the way weren't asked for....I think it will be best if I pass on commenting on your opinions.

You seem to have a "plan" so all I have to say at this point is good luck and may you make loads of $$$.

Cheers,
Sonia

To Suzanne and Busy:

First, I need you to define "graphics" for me so I know that we are definitely talking about the same thing here. When I think of graphics, I'm thinking of things such as buttons, smileys, flashing neon signs, an animated picture of a man playing the guitar and keeping a beat with his foot, etc. Now, is that the same definition as yours?

Second, I completely agree that I will have to study and work on browser-compatibility issues. I have noticed that some pages I visit on WebTV (not too many, though) have text to the right that can not be seen even on my TV (which has a 25" screen . . . a very nice monitor where I can hit the "input" button to watch TV when I'm finished typing).

Third, as for my code writing (I called it programming for simplification), I was mistaken about my use of an "editor" (I think). I occasionally use WebTV's Pagebuilder Editor, but I MOSTLY create sites through Angelfire.

If you're not familiar with Angelfire, they have both a BASIC EDITOR and an ADVANCED EDITOR. I normally use the Advanced Editor, which is nothing more than a blank page that can be previewed and corrected, if necessary before saving what I've done into Angelfire's free 20MB of storage space (eliminating my need for a disc).

Sooooooo, I suppose I have been using an editor without even realizing it. However, when I think of an editor, I see something like the vB Code boxes on this site . . . where you just click "COLOR" and it becomes the color of your choice. The Advanced Editor on Angelfire is really nothing more than a blank white page with a "preview" and "save" button on it.

You know, Busy, I think it all just might be possible with WebTV, provided I don't run out of chocolate (for my nerves) anytime soon.

We are all talking from experience here when we say about what clients want and I think you will not find the hundreds of clients wanting to use the services you will be offering, unless they have never surfed the internet before! IME even a restaurant owner will want pictures of his restaurant on his website to show people how nice it is, a picture of the front of it so visitors will recognise it, his restaurant sign/logo as the main logo on the site.

So if Bob from the restaurant does come to you for a site and says he wants all these things on his site, how are you going to turn him away? In any business word of mouth and recommendations are one of the best ways to market the company but if you are turning people away because of things like this you wont get the business. And if you do build a very basic site for someone and they then come back to have it updated and they then decide they want more graphics/photos on it and you can't do it, that's not going to help your reputation either.

Is the site you have in your profile the site you will be showing clients as your example of your work?

Sonia: I wasn't offended. I was just making a suggestion in regards to your site, nothing personal.

Webmistress: If "Bob" wants a picture (or even a few pictures) of the front of his restaurant on his site, I can do that (even if I have to use someone else's computer to scan it, save it as some file, upload it to my directory, then put it on the site). No big deal really. If he wants lots and lots of pictures, he won't likely be coming to me anyway. I do wonder how someone can say I "can't" do something" without really know what I can do (???). Perhaps you are talking from experience about what YOUR clients might want.

Also, the site in my profile is nothing more than a basic entertainment site.

So at this point, you're only looking to make small "novelty" sites? I know lots of people who wanted me to make them little 2-3 page sites that really had no worthwhile content and were only there for cosmetic purposes - so they could "put a URL on their business card".

I guess that would be feasible, except most of them weren't businesses. And none of them could afford to pay me any money that even remotely compensated for the effort I took to make the sites.

The end result was a few tiny sites that amounted to virtually nothing - not even something worth using in my portfolio, as they were all hosted on free servers and affected even my image.

I guess they were fun excercises (I was little more than a beginner at the time), and I learnt a little, but it never really led to anything.

If you mean to follow this as a profession, then the direction you're taking will end up being a waste of time, really. If you're going at it as a hobby, you might find it a good learning experience or pastime.

Feisty:

I'm just stepping in as moderator here since I've decided you are pretty much unswayable in your set opinions. Critiques should only be given when asked for and then, only in the appropriate forums.

There's an old saying: People in glass houses (with tacky backgrounds, broken links, and javascript errors, no less) best not throw stones.

On the other hand, at least you are spending some time viewing the members' sites. This is good. You could learn a lot from sites such as Sonia's

You seem to have a misconception here that the "Bobs" of this world are willing to forsake quality due to their size. The bulk of my clientele are small businesses and organizations. They are some of the most demanding clients I have. Their web presence is often an important step for them and they want to ensure that the site makes a good impression. Graphics are not just photos. They are logos, text headers, maps, navigation bars, etc.

You've asked us if we think you could operate a web design business relying solely on WebTV. Our opinion has been a rather resounding "no." Your response to each argument (other than "the client doesn't need that" - the client will tell you what he needs, believe me!) was to say you'd use a PC at the library or a friend's house. This, in my opinion, supports our views rather than refutes them.

Well look at that - I've said far more than intended. Submit or delete? hmmm....

Quote: Originally posted by disaster-master
I also agree that "Web pages that Suck" is a jungle but if you look around they give some great examples of what not to do when creating web sites. Again, just trying to be helpful.

The reason why this site is so bad is because he (Vincent Flanders) is demonstrating his teachings directly through his website design. That is, looking at this bad design and trying to navigate through it should teach you some lessons about what *not* to do with your site.

Graphics are not just spinning icons and stamping feet, no. Graphics are an integral part of page layout and design. They are both design elements and content.

You can make sites using graphic elements from other sources, yes. Including Angelfire. I'm familiar with Angelfire, and their restrictive TOS, which you might want to read in depth.

Issues of copyright also arise, and credit, when using graphics from other sources. This can diminish the perceived quality of a website in the eyes of the user/audience, depending on the type of site it is.

Keep reading around -- zeldman.com and alistapart.com regularly have links that will educate you (and us all).

Edit: I have single logo files from clients that are 20M...

Well, I think Abhishek has gotten the idea of what I'm trying to do. I'm not really intending on making thousands (or perhaps, even hundreds) of dollars for each site I do. For example, if I were to do one of the 2-3 page sites for someone, as Abhishek mentioned, I could probably have it completed (still might need a little editing depending on what the client wants) within maybe 2-3 days. Plus, I might only charge, say $40-$50 for such a site. Of course, my final bill would have to include all of the time spent, the coding that was necessary, etc. This would basically just be a source of extra money (not a source to make a living from, at least not for me).

Taff: Yes, I might need an actual computer for some things, so that's where a friend's computer or the library's computer might be utilized. Broken links and JavaScript errors? Please elaborate (I'm am asking). The "tacky" (I might call it "soothing") background was put there on purpose, though.

Megan: It may have good content, but who cares if you can hardly stand to look at it? I do see your point, though, and I am aware of many of these website errors.

Suzanne: Let's hope the eyes of the user/audience are not too picky. Also, you seem to have much larger clients than I intend to have. They'd really have to "dig deep" into their wallets to get me to do a 20MG file for them. What kind of a logo would take up 20MG anyway? I'd love to see it (or a similar one that takes up as much space), if you have a link.

Would the dragonfly or butterfly (whichever) on Megan's site be considered a graphic? I am wondering how she got the thing to look like it was flying and moving towards you at the same time.

Quote: Originally posted by fiesty_01

Taff: Yes, I might need an actual computer for some things, so that's where a friend's computer or the library's computer might be utilized. Broken links and JavaScript errors? Please elaborate (I'm am asking). The "tacky" (I might call it "soothing") background was put there on purpose, though.

Feel free to visit the Web Site Critique Forum. Be sure to read up on the guidelines first though.

The 20 meg files that Suzanne refers to are not web graphics. Typically they are designed for print purposes and need to be modified for web use. Again, this is where graphics software comes in to play.

I guess the point that we are all trying to make here, in various ways, is that there is much more to this business than writing some HTML and slapping it up on the server.

Quote: Originally posted by fiesty_01
Broken links and JavaScript errors? Please elaborate (I'm am asking).

I get a JS error..
Line: 232
Error: Unterminated string constant

broken links.. All 6 links under "Fast Links" are broken.

I doubt if errors show up on webTV so I'm guessing he would never have known if it wasn't pointed out to him. Hence another reason why webdesign is best done on a PC with multiple browser testing!

Or a Mac, Julia!

Yes, we're talking raw files that the client sends, such as a print version advertisement in .psd format, or a series of complex logo renderings for approvals in .ai format.

Or even, in some unweildy cases, content in Word docs or Excel spreadsheets that aren't necessarily 20M each, but add up easily.

Big clients? No. Mom and pop businesses, sole proprietors, mostly. Some larger clients like universities and such, but I rarely have to deal with larger issues with those clients as they have inhouse graphics and marketing departments that just give me what I need. Some non-profit and not-for-profits in there as well.

There are very few people/businesses who can be served by brochureware or yellow page ad "websites". In my opinion, it's not utilizing the web well to just have information online and an email address or worse, just a phone number.

The size of the client often has no relation to the size or complexity of the site, as well.

Quote: Originally posted by fiesty_01
Well, I think Abhishek has gotten the idea of what I'm trying to do. I'm not really intending on making thousands (or perhaps, even hundreds) of dollars for each site I do. For example, if I were to do one of the 2-3 page sites for someone, as Abhishek mentioned, I could probably have it completed (still might need a little editing depending on what the client wants) within maybe 2-3 days. Plus, I might only charge, say $40-$50 for such a site. Of course, my final bill would have to include all of the time spent, the coding that was necessary, etc. This would basically just be a source of extra money (not a source to make a living from, at least not for me).

IMHO, you'd be lucky to even get that much ($40) for small websites like that. As I said, people who are looking little "business-card" sites really won't be able to afford them (they aren't really businesses - just ordinary people who want to toy with a web presence). Most of the small sites I did were for free and none were for profit.

You'll actually lose your "clientele" if you charged them any money, because they don't really need to be online, and can easily drop the idea if it got too expensive.

I don't know how you intend on working around the constraints of not having the "tools of the trade", but it seems to me like your solutions could cost a bit. I can almost guarantee you that what income you'll get from your clients will not make up for that.

As I concluded before, if you intend to do this for fun, sure, it's a great - but possibly costly - hobby.

you might find this link interesting http://lois.co.uk/web/browser-compare.shtml (webtv at the bottom)

Busy: I did find it interesting. It seemed that WebTV actually looked better (and more readable) than the others, though (?). Was I seeing that right? I'd sure hate to have that Lynx browser. Which one was it that only showed tables in paragraph form?

Mark Hensler: I did find ONE broken link in the "Fast Links" section (the "Romance" one), but I don't understand why since the same exact link is working down in the Jump Box (I checked it several times, so I don't know why it's not working. The other "Fast Links" worked just fine (for me, anyway).

Also, "JS Error on Line 232"? If "JS" means JavaScript, my JavaScript stuff ends on or near line 209 (???). I don't understand that one. Maybe you could tell me exactly what "line 232" contains.

Suzanne: You stated "The size of the client OFTEN has no relation to the size or complexity of the site". My point: I am after the niche where the size of the client DOES have a relation to the size or complexity of the site, if that makes sense.

Abhishek: It seems that not all people are as good at managing money (or controlling spending) as you and I are.

Others: I guess errors do show up on WebTV after all??? By the way, I still call it WebTV, but they have changed the name to MSNtv a few months ago (not sure if there's much of a difference, though).

Lynx is a text based browser available on unix and linux systems. I use it from time to time when I telnet into my linux box to get file downloads. That picture of a Lynx browser actually running in a DOS shell in windows.

Something else to consider about developing with WebTV... the resolution for a television is comparable to a PC at 640x480, or sometimes 800x600. 1024x768 is (I believe) now the most used resolution, if not higher. And I've seen cards that can go as high as 2048x1536.

So, doesn't that mean that what I'm seeing here on my TV screen should be even clearer on PC's with such high resolution? Or, is the resolution of these PC's so clear that it actually interfere's somehow with that which has been "programmed" on something with lower resolution?

Also, I'm still wondering about the "JS" and broken links question.

Here is a link about what MSNtv (formerly WebTV) is capable of, if this helps any: http://developer.msntv.com/

I had a look at a site this morning that said "WebTV has limited support for CSS" so that would be why you saw the sites you looked at looking horrible, take a look at this page (dont click any links), to you it should look a mess as it's mostly CSS (it's xhtml strict). This is just a example page I am playing around with for my site. As you'll hopefuly see the layout is very plain and simple but effective, this is what you'll need to learn (XHTML and CSS) to keep up with todays market.

IMO WebTV (or whatever you want to call it) is not the way forward for the internet and development of sites using it to do so is not good practice. More people use PC/Mac for surfing so that is the basis for what counts, sites should look ok on WebTV but not the other way round. If you aren't wanting to make any money out of this venture then go for it and have fun. You have had the comments based on the experiences of people here that have been in this industry for some considerable time but you don't really need our comments if you are happy to carry on producing your sites as they are.

Busy: Yes, I agree that I will have to (and I plan to) study the CSS and XHTML more in-depth. The link to munchtech resulted in a message that said something like "this site refused to give me access."

Webmistress: I'm not trying to take the internet forward.

Quote: Webmistress: I'm not trying to take the internet forward.

Then you're holding it back.

fiesty_01,

i jsut spent 1/2 an hour reading what u and every one has been telling each other and it seems to me that u come here for advice but when some one gives it to u, u "shut them down" saying that ur method is better, that ur program is better, u don't need this u don't need that, if u REALLY don't need all of their advice then why ask?

these people KNOW from experience, the've been there, u haven't.

i'm just starting out in this industry too and i TOTALLY agree with what EVERYONE has sed here, and i don't think u should ask for advice and then shoot it down.

they have dedicated a bit of their time and mental power for u and ur not thank full for it, i think it's time to b

...and btw if this post sounds like a flame then i'm sorry... it's just that i get a bit annoyed at people who ask for advice but never accept that they are wrong. :S

Quote: Originally posted by The Webmistress
IMO WebTV (or whatever you want to call it) is not the way forward for the internet and development of sites using it to do so is not good practice.

I somewhat disagree with the first part of this statement. Experts have been saying for years that the future of the internet is non-PC (non-Mac) browsing devices. This is part of the reason for separating content from style - so that content can be served to a non-standard device. Opera 7 now has the ability to shrink a site to about 200px wide - the size of a mobile device (PDA, whatever) screen. I'm somewhat surprised that WebTV (or whatever it's called) hasn't been more popular. It's a cheap and easy way to get online and take advantage of the basic benefits of the internet. However, I 100% agree that it should not be considered a development platform.

Renegade: Some have actually stated that what I'm trying to do might be possible. Others say it's impossible, are trying hard to give reasons why, but still sometimes don't make a lot of sense. Example: Saying "It is not possible to do this on a medium such as WebTV" just because it is not a more-expensive or updated PC is NOT a sufficient argument. Saying "I can't do certain things on WebTV" without knowledge of what all it is capable of also does not compute. I'm basically trying to sort through all of this to see what is possible, since I will likely not be too concerned with what is not possible. People once said it was impossible to sail too far without falling off the edge of the Earth.

Also, when have I said "my method is better" or "my program(?) is better?" I really don't remember that at all (???).

Abhishek: I don't feel it's my responsibility to move the internet forward, but I don't think I'm holding it back either (see Megan's post above). Perhaps, I'm somewhere in the middle (steady?).

Megan: WHY should it not be considered as a development platform, IF it truly is possible to use it as such?

Also, I had asked about this previously, but didn't get any answers. I was wondering what type of "coding" or "programming" was utilized to get the dragonfly on your home page to fly towards the screen. I'm thinking it must have been some sort of "Flash" animation. Is this correct? WebTV (MSNtv now) does support Flash versions 1.0, 2.0, 3.0, and 4.0 (but not 5.0), but I haven't used it any yet or studied it very much.

Yes the butterfly is done in Macromedia Flash, but you wont be able to anything in flash on WebTV as it is software that is purchased and installed onto a PC/Mac.

If things like .NET take off, any web-based application would be able to be used through MSNtv or WebTV, or your fridge. However, because you CAN do something doesn't mean you SHOULD.

I could technically design webpages (or at least write the code) on a PDA, or on my cell phone. Will I? No. Why? Because as much fun (?!) as that may be, it's a waste of time to attempt it in all but the most emergent situations because of the limitations of those platforms.

You can TECHNICALLY use Word, Excel, Photoshop, Fireworks, Illustrator, et cetera as HTML Editors, but the drawbacks are many, and they are not the tools for a professional to use for HTML/XHTML/XML because of that.

I can TECHNICALLY repair my muffler with a tin can and a hand held welder, and it will probably even last a good while (and speaking from experience, it has), however if a mechanic in a shop fixed my car with a tin can, I'd be livid. Why? Because I expect more than an ad hoc solution from a professional. Clever as it may be.

Feisty_01, I think the point that everyone is trying to make to you is that you can use WebTV for some minor web development but it is not the best option. Just like people in the construction trade can use hammers. They don't much use hammers any more since it is much more productive and efficient to use nailguns. Constructing sites using WebTV would be more akin to a carpenter using a screwdriver to drive nails. It is not designed for that application. WebTV was never designed as a web development tool. It was designed to give easy and cheap Internet access to people not to build websites.

Anyway, I see from your sig that you are in TN. Where are you in TN?

Quote: Originally posted by fiesty_01
So, doesn't that mean that what I'm seeing here on my TV screen should be