Amature vs. Professional

I agree. It seems that people still haven't realized that good Web Design takes experience, talent, and a lot of knowledge. Unfortunately the clients don't know the difference between good and bad and end up with a lot of poor quality products. So many people offering sites at "bargain basement prices!" People haven't yet realized that when it comes to web design "bargain basement" means "garbage." Shameful, the kind of stuff that passes for professional web design! I was browsing through some local directories recently and was appalled at what was available in my area.

I don't think the practice of having admin assitants doing website updates is such a huge problem. If the site is properly designed by a real professional and the assistant is properly trained it shouldn't be a huge problem. Fits well with the normal responsibilities for those sorts of jobs.

I DO have a problem with inexperienced beginners passing themselves off as professional web designers. I've said this before: there's a reason why web designers have a reputation for being 16 year-old kids working out of their bedrooms. It gives us all a bad name and I don't see it letting up anytime soon. I don't even like to tell people that I'm a web designer (unskillled creator of cheap junk) - I'll use "developer" instead or some variation of my actual job title (online course developer).

We see it over and over again here - someone discovers web design, comes here and reads about people doing this for a living. Right away they think they can do it too. The sad thing is that they actually get clients! Web design has gotten a reptuation for being easy, which isn't not, and that leads business owners to believe that they can get a good site for very little money.

ETA: The more serious problem with this is that the unskilled beginners are undercutting the market to the point where the skilled designer can't compete. If I wanted to go out on my own I'd have a hard time making the kind of money I can get doing something else.

I also think that even reasonably capable designers are missing the point of design in a lot of cases. You see peopole focusing on visual design, navigation, technologies, and functionality. Nobody talks about what the site is really supposed to be doing - making the client's business better. Unfrotunately people still tend to see websites as eye candy - like a status symbol almost rather than a business tool. I think this is why small business web design has been such a failure. I'm seeing a lot of jobs for marketing people with web design experience so it looks like this could be a new trend. This is what really separates the best from the rest in this field.

Yeah that ticks me off too! Especially when even forum members tend to classify you amature just because youre no good in certain aspects of design and instead of helping just crack it all up, its not like im asking for codes, aligning (as mentioned) and the stuff when all you really need are diffusion of ideas to make certain things LOOK better...
Maybe youve read before I also teach basic html, when I say basic I mean b-a-s-i-c...

See I also have this student once with onle a semester from me, her mom has this good business here of clubs, resorts, hotels and she decided to make a site for her... She didnt told me at first, it seems shes quite interested learning that shes always asking for additional notes, thats not against my better judgement but she knows this and then post up this site with all the pictures and bells and blah... And then name it coded by me??? Then she was kind enough to tick me off again by posting a link for my old site... Then one day her mom asked who did their site and it was crappy, she pointed at me, then her mom asked me if she paid anything or what... I said no, then explained what had happened (who would she believe anyways?)... She birate me and all and took it up against the school for me doing business inside the campus... Which I dont... It was all up in the air, so lucky enough I got a few sites on the works for local business of a few of my students and was able to show her what I can really do professionally, So again I setup a confrontation and drop all these infront of her as well ...

Im not so shitty that I'll post a client site that doesnt even quilify to my standards...
Im a little fish in the sea, but Im no shark...
but little things sting too ya know?

I also remember spidermans motto "with great power comes great responsibility"...
If I chose too im better in hacking than in designing, maybe Ill hack their site... LOL!

There is a lot more to web designing than just knowing (x)HTML or how to use an editor.

Webdesigning (if solo) is a whole package, you design the code to the layout (or vis-versa), hopefully validate it making it more browser compatible, then even hopefully adapt some 504 or section8 elements into the layout. Images, banners or logos need to be made or sourced. The site then has to be uploaded and submitted to search engines, updates and links have to be maintained ...
In a company sense a webdesigner usually just does one part (the code) but is part of a team, singular this person is nothing, the team is everything.
Think of the team as a hand - the webdesigner may be the thumb, but without the fingers it's useless, being solo you need to be the whole hand.

To create a site in frontpage and upload it to the net, anyone can do it (and they do), maintaining a name on the net is another ball game all together. I've actually seen one or two really good designs made with frontpage, the site fell over on some browsers but was only because their knowledge was limited, and the person was stuborn with the "it looks great to me so should to everyone else" attitude.

I think more people need to remember the golden rule of webdesign - we design for other people. Our own likes, dislikes, favorites should not come into it, design for the topic whether it be a business site, a personal site or something else.
Structure is king, design a solid foundation (code base), then comes content and everything else are extras (unless it's a graphic based topic).

I am not a webdesigner, sure I have created all my sites, code, images etc but I suck at creating images, my SEO knowledge is only limited yet I can create and maintain an e-commerce site easily. I am somewhere between an amature and professional. If I had to title myself it would be developer or something

Quote: 16 year-old kids working out of their bedrooms.

Yup, that's me. But my situation is a little different. Local web development companies (real ones) outsource to me, so I never meet with customers. When my aunt wanted me to do her website I told her to go through a real company, not me. It's not fair for a real company to compete with dorky 16 year old kids. I have no problems with 16 year old kids applying for jobs at web design companies, as I did. They shouldn't design on their own, though.

Oh you think this field is tough, try desktop publishing. It may just be me, but I can spot an inkjet printed publication (or worse, "business card") a mile away, and to me, it says "unprofessional".

I deal with people that stop and think, hmm, he wants $.20 a page for a color flyer, at 250 copies, that's $50... Then they see their inkjet printer sitting there, and decide they can save money by printing them themselves. Then a week after that, complaining at the costs of ink when it runs out during soemthing else....

-Greg

good discussion. only one thing detracts from it

the spelling of amateur

and BTW.

An armature is the rotating part of an electric motor or generator

Don't you think some younger people are better designers than some of the older ones? I really don't think age has anything to do with design capabilities. It's a matter of interacting with client and how the designer treats the client. I have a couple of friends who can design a lot better than companies around here. But they just don’t communicate very well.

ok here is my thoughts (as if anyone cares)
a good web site is decided by the customers happiness. If a young person can deliver a functional website that the customer likes..then mission accomplished. Anyone elses opinion is just that..an opinion.

to the professional or not topic... how is a professional technicly defined?
according to http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&rls=GGLG,GGLG:2005-30,GGLG:en&oi=defmore&q=define:professional
1.master: an authority qualified to teach apprentices
2.Being paid to do an activity as the significant portion of one’s income.

so if #2 is true then i am a pro! lol

The arguement isnt if someone is or is not a webmaster. Is more, are you good and are you takeing jobs away from those who are better?

Quote: Is more, are you good and are you takeing jobs away from those who are better?

Should only the best get jobs? There are a lot of landscapers out there, and some are better than others, why should the best one get all the business? That doesn't make sense. What's wrong with taking away jobs from other people if your doing good enough to get clients?

hey I get a few jobs a month and its basicly because I have a personal and professional approach with people. I need the money and I charge less than anyone in my are just to get the job. So I guess you could say I am the Walmart of web design in michigan.

I don't think age is really a factor, I redid a site that had been done by a 'professional', I believe he was in his 50's. He must be colour blind or something as the orgainal site had a blue background with blue (a diferent shade of blue) text, plus blue links and half the pages weren't linked ...

Good point Busy, but I think the crux of this argument is experience instead of age.

Even if the guy's 50 he might have only been doing design for a week

You're right, it's not just about being young. That's not the point. There are "older" people who are trying to do this too. The point is that way too many people pass themselves off as web designers without having anything close to the proper skills, talent, and experience.

The internet is an interesting media...
Your common user recognizes it is print media. (Like an advertisement)
Yet it is a communications tool. (Like a newspaper)
The thing that gets you recognition is a program suite that is geared towards 5 year olds. (Flash)

So I guess the thing the separates the professionals and the armatures is usability. For as much as everyone complains about it you would think it would be more important to the masses.

It's not really like an advertisement or a newspaper. Websites are a lot more functional and interactive. It's so much more than a communications tool or an advertismeent (and it is like an advertisement its a great way for businesses to let their customers know more about them). In most cases you are communicating comething interactively and/or attempting to get people to *do something* (buy the product, sign up for the service etc.). Knowing what the goal is is important for all sites but especially business sites. A professional web designer should be able to determine what that goal is and develop a site that can accomplish it.

And not just usability - branding/marketing, attention to detail, quality development methods, knowledge of technologies and ability to choose appropriately, knowledge of design principles, ability to create something that looks good and works, ability to network, get clients, and treat them professionally etc. etc.

It is scary how many designers don't even have a baisc grasp of any of this. Many seem to think that visually flashy or impressive is enough. I was at the Pepsi site the other day (trying to find out when Pepsi One will be available in Canada) and it has got to be the most unusable site I have ever seen. "Professional web designer"? Ha!

And sure, there's room for different quality levels like there is in other markets but what so many don't realize is that what they're providing is too low quality. In other markets it wouldn't be possible to sell such garbage but since the masses don't seem to know what good web deisgn is they get away with it. If you were comparing it to a hair stylist or accountant or building contractor or something - even the bad ones have some basic level of qualifications. And the bad ones certainly won't last too long in business!

ETA: It's not Walmart quality, it's dollar store quality. And there are certain things that should not be available at the dollar store

I am not a pro web designer but I have taught myself enough to design a website. That is it. My website is not brilliant but it does me with the budget I have. If I had more money I would get a pro to design my site but I currently do not. I said my site was not brilliant and to be honest it is quite the opposite. I know when I see a well designed website by a pro web designer and I know it is a million times better than mine.

To all pro web designers, I respect your ability!

And that's cool! Nothing wrong with doing this as a hobby or for your own business. That's the way to learn!

I was just coming back to add to my last point - these aren't really commercial quality products at all so it's not comaprable to walmart or even the dollar store. I'm sure you all can think of hobbies you've had or your family or friends have had. A good hobbiest is not the same as a professional! It takes a lot of work, training, and experience to get to the next level. In web design people just keep getting this idea that hobbiest level quality is good enough to sell.

I compleatly agree on everything you say Megan. I know the level of work that goes into each and every site I do. I spend more time modifying the page than creating the page. But what really bothers me, what the real proublem is... 90% of the people who are on the internet dont notice the diffrence between quality (professional) work and cheep amature work.
Case and point Bja888.com.
This site doesnt get anywhere near the credit it deserves. It needs a update when it comes to the visuals but that site is so cool. Everyone thinks its flash. It works in...
- FireFox (and netscape)
- IE
- Windows
- Macs
- Linux
It looks the same in all of those. Speeds might differ slightly but its quality work. Especally knowing that I had only been doing web design for 2.5 years when that site came out.

its a great site 4 sure very cool

and i hate what walmart does i probably shouldn't have said that

Hey bjaa I told you yesterday I thought it was on flash, and noticed it was all GIFs with javascripts... Still even with that little jagged graphics, you have proved two points... You can do certain things better than amateurs, You can have the same effect you want without using flash!

Seems we all agree about certain topics here, but what really is the issue here?
What really is the big deal? We deal with experience, Talent, Skills and training...
What else? Ive had gripes like these... I just keep doin what Im doin, and maybe time will come that people will recognize my work...

There are always going to be those who think they can do it in the market. I'm also on a forum for limo companies, See the same argument there. The pro's and those who jsut rent a car. Funny how complaints are about the same

Quote: 90% of the people who are on the internet dont notice the diffrence between quality (professional) work and cheep amature work.

again, same complaint in both worlds. There will always be the people who will shop for price, and as long as they can't tell whats wrong, will think they saved a buck and all is well.

As with the limo world, and what the pros there point out. Never lower your standards or prices, instead raise you level of education to the customers of what they will get over the competition.

I've done a few sites before. I don't charge much. I'm not trying to undercut someone who does it for a living. *I* know what is possible out there, and knowing that do not feel comfortable charging someone the same price as a "pro" (yes, I do explain it to the people). I suck at layout and such, I much prefer backend programming

The one thing that does bother me though, seeing someone who offers cheap service, and find out, they are using illegal copies of Dreamweaver, Photoshop, etc. Seen them argue "well I bought it OEM" or "I got educational pricing". It is still against the license agreement. I'll admit, I used to do that. I hope others can come to the point where they can realize it and be able to purchase the full copies like I did. Hey if you are making $$ using the software PAY FOR IT, allocate income towards it, it's well worth it.

I'm proud that for the first time in a LONG time, my laptop is full of 100% fully legal software

Funny how this is another issue similar to limo forums compliants, there they have those who skirt permit laws and insurance laws so they can undercut the legit companies. Same as here, the customer doesn't notice until something comes up that causes them to look closer.

All in all, there is always going to be competition of different levels of ability. I do agree, there are too many people who think they can make it look pretty. (see http://www.stow.oh.us especially in firefox...) And jsut remember, no matter how good you may be, there will probably always be at least one person who conciders you not a pro to "their" standards. Just a difference in people. It's life.

My suggestion, when you see a "slop site" (my personal term for it), why not drop a friendly e-mail offering if nothing else a link to a site with tutorials on what you see wrong. Help the "newbies"

I'm going to hop off the soap box now and go watch tonight's episode of Big Brother. Glad to be able to have the place to rant once and a while

-Greg

Ack, Big Brother - ghastly program!

Interesting parallels though! I guess it's the same in most businesses, and there're always plenty of incompetent people around to ruin it for everyone else. The company I work for as a "day-job" is a huge multi-national (I'll name no names) yet our approach to software design/development can be very amateurish with terrible results. I guess the problems we discuss here can manifest themselves for every company, no matter what level it's at.

IMO the crux of this argument is that learning is fine, however trying to manifest yourself in other peoples perceptions as having a higher knowledge-level than you actually do is definately not fine. Then undercutting professionals who really understand what they're doing and also do this as a full-time job is even worse.

Megan wrote:
these aren't really commercial quality products at all so it's not comparable to walmart or even the dollar store.

Agreed, these products definately fall into the category of what I call a: "Non-entity"

That stow site you pointed out Greg:

If this is an amateur site then fine. There's nothing wrong with someone learning and messing around with different tools in their own area, especially if they can't afford a designer and they're just doing a one-off site for a specific purpose. But if this was written by a so-called "Web designer" then we have a problem

I also agree, I see myself as an amature (i don't use free javascripts and millions of jigsaw images though) but I can't see myself trying to create a decent, professional looking site until I get a LOT more experience...

For now I think I'll just keep practicing.

Then we come to the definition of professionalism, the skill, competence, or character expected of a member of a highly trained profession, the following of an activity for financial gain rather than as an amateur... As a professional, engaged in an occupation as a paid job rather than as a hobby, showing a high degree of skill or competence & habitually, and usually annoyingly, indulging in a particular activity...

Megan wrote:
I'd be more comfotable working in a team with complementary skill sets.

I can empathise with that, someone can't know everything. That's also a good part of this forum, we can all make-up for each others knowledge gaps.

I'd say that having professionalism in one's business dealings is often more important than actual knowledge. A good manager doesn't need to know everything about a particular subject if they have a good team of specialists backing them up.

What annoys me more is programmers who fancy themselves as designers, but that is a whole different topic!

There are plenty of unqualified amateurs around, sometimes it annoys me but ulitmately they make me look even better so i don't mind The world is full of immoral, unethical people but if you're truly good enough then it shouldn't matter.

-Rob

I dont know, i know how to program in HTML, C++, pascal, basic and a bit of java, PHP and the rest of the basic stuff. I certinly would call myself a amature, though i think there is a huge difference in a amature making his first site for himself and the same guy selling that service. I wouldn't feel comfortable selling my services to someone else. I do think with frontpage and other WYSIWYG editors the webdesign industry went down the crapper. Now a 14 yearold can make a website, that does look good, however it wont preform good. I know enough to optimize my websites a bit. But for a quality design you would expect it to have a fast load time, easily updateable and effective layout. I've seen enough to know that a nav bar, with some content in the middle isn't always a effective layout...specially when they like to put lots of bulky images that don't need to be there. On that same note, i don't blaim people for using frontpage. It's a pain in the *** coding it in a text editor all the time. Personally i use my editors, and then go through and chop the **** i dont need. The one i'm using has quite a few options to keep the code simple. But thats just me.

I read a post sometime back requesting the services of a web designer. When asked he said he was willing to pay $10. for his site's creation.

I've seen job postings for web designers at $13/hour. That's where we've gotten with all this price gouging. Now there are people who expect to get decent work done for pennies

I'm good at coding and producing websites to a general "Ok" level. What I need to take the next step is more php, perl knowledge and the ability to really design good looking sites. No idea how you produce websites that are abit more "artsy".

i.e. rspca.org.uk

To be honest using professionally designed templates and modifying them slightly seems okay to me.

The best example of an artsy site I might say is CSS zen garden... But as one person said, even sometimes we can make mistakes like making sites just because we can, not because we need it... Templates from template farms is good for you if you really dont need to hire a developer and want to code the template over to translate it to the web...

The point is bjaa is that I suggest he needs to hire a developer if he wants one, but if his bad at designs but would like to learn layouting a site for his needs then he could use a template as he suggested himself...

Welcome to the forums Mike :wave:

I agree with you, what I disagree with is the passing-off of amateur work as professional.

If you're saying to your customer something like: "I'm an amateur, but I might be able to help you out." Then that's fine.

By the way, you can say hello "officially" in the Introductions Forum. Pop over there and tell us a bit about yourself

And this is quite different from actually sellling your serivices. If someone was paying you significants of money to do that. Nothing wrong with being an amateur at all! Just something wrong with amateurs passing themselves off as professionals.

Do introduce yourself, and let me know where in SW Ontario you're from!

I don't want to sound crule even though I will proubally come off that way but... when you say

Quote: It ended up being functional and looking good (but not excellent like the pros)

functional to you is proubaly not functional to the rest of the professional commnuity. There are soo many factors that go into each layout/design/page/line. For you purpose it is proubally acceptable though.

Quote: ...looking good (but not excellent like the pros)

There is more to a website than just making it look good. I've gotten banned from some fourms because I insulted their website. When the file size of the page is larger than if you just make it all a image you have a proublem.

One note, you may want to get started on creating your own banner from scratch. If it was done by the "pro" and he did refuse to give rights to use it, then there is potential legal issues.

If i need to mdofiy anything that was maintained by someone else, I try to convert it to all original material.

-Greg

You sound like you are learning. Good for you! Myabe one day you will have to start selling your personal posessions because some amature too your job. Just like me

I would not call myself an amateur webmaster... but maybe you would because I only use front page and a little asp, and my web sites are always very simple, but my users like it.. and I have been able to single handly make millions of dollars online since 2000 using only front page....
I have never tried any other program, and have no interest to do so

Sercee, what if you found you could produce those same web pages faster in Dreamweaver, but it would take you a month or so to get up to speed in Dreamweaver? That's what I ended up finding out, for myself at least. The month or so is frustrating, but once I made the switch I was very glad I did.

BTW, have you really lurked for two years without posting. That's a long time!

He was busy using frontpage to make webpages... Anyways... whatever you use as a development platform it still depends wether your earning ethically or earning in unethical ways, like the real point of this thread, for example I could earn loads of cash by generating a bunch of porn sites and so on, but then I chose not to because of ethical reasons...

As a professional...I have a gripe...

A friend of mine just finished 'design school' i.e..print and web. First off they basically taught how to use programs, Illustrator, Photoshop, and Quark.

Her instructer who taught 'web design' spoke these words:

"You MUST do websites in Photoshop. If anyone uses Dreamweaver you'll fail." All she was taught was to slice up an image in Photoshop..that's it. Nothing about code, nothing about standards. Sites these people are putting out are nothing more than big images sliced up.

Fortuatly, she did part of her internship with me, and I got her started with hand coding to standards with XHTML and CSS.

On the print side, she was not taught theory...simply how to use software.

It makes me really angry that schools get away with teaching wrong.

Yeah and thats my point too, thats why I advocate standards, BTW I teach basic html too, some CSS these to secondary school students, I even tried to tied up with schools to teach the knowledge about the internet, not for them to think Local but Global as well... Marginalized societies tend to put themselves down, so I want to instill to them a different mindset... First and foremost also I was from print media, I can make great digital images as well as by hand... Then as I said before I tried to use the net as a medium which lead me to learning about all the coding and stuff, evolving as time goes by, still I edit codes by hand, but then I still use images and graphics that are well spliced up, I learned the hard way to like most of you, but the point is, what difference are you going to be in the industry? Whats the purpose? Yes Money, I need that too, but first and foremost I love what I do, Ill keep doing it, keep learning, and advocate standards,...

Got an experience even worse.

Someone I did a website for his father, asked me if I could help his girlfriend with a class she was taking. She was an education major, and the class was to teach them how to make web sites, so as a teacher they could have a web page with information for their students.

I enjoy that, and enjoyed hanging out with them, so I said sure. Get into it, there were about 10 projects. One of them used Front Page. <--- THAT IS THE GOOD SIDE of the story. The other nine used MS Word, Excel, and GASP, Publisher! I kid you not!! They were even told how nice word is becasue you can put in large pictures and just drag them to the size you want. (and does anyone else share my pet peeve about webpages with "clip art"? I mean come on, has the "clip art makers" been in a time freeze since 1995 or what?)

And as for the page publisher made... it was ONE LARGE IMAGE (text and all) with an image map for all the links.

Sad sad sad. TO be honest, if i had a business and had to hire a programmer or web person, I think I would take someone without a degree first. (now specialized certification, may be a different story, but that costs an arm and a leg, and I see why)

-Greg

Why is word the default html editor? I have always wonderd that...
Well I am about 20 or so days till I go broke and have to sell my car. Because these other people are far better than me at web design. (Still got a since of humor)

sense of humor dude...

The words 'Word' and 'HTML Editor' should not be used in the same sentence. They just aint compatible in the same sentence!

I am doing my bit for the education side of things, I usually block all intrusive linking to my html site as I do follow the logs for bots etc, I have allowed at least 3 schools to keep linking to my site as they suggest my site (and a couple of others) in their exams. Crazy if you ask me, but hey if it helps ... (must update the site one day as is a bit out dated).

Btw this has not been some shamless self promotion, just some useless information

I have a similar experience with education - that's a whole other monster, unfortunately! It's unbelievable how many unqualified people are actually teaching others their garbage techniques. I guess this goes back to the thread in Webmasetr's Corner on goals and how we can work to change that.

A lot of educational programs also seem to concentrate on teaching the software rather than actual design techniques..

The only web design teacher I had knew enough about html and computers but I had to teach her the new stuff like CSS. I think I should start looking for a a web consulting job. Sounds easy...

edit: Love the story megan. I got pissed off my first day of web publishing... I would of thrown a fit in that class. The second he said "you dont need to learn html" I would of walked out.

?

You guys say the amateur's are undercutting the pro's...

Well, I'm at a critical time in my life right now. I could continue in what I"m planning on doing... *mastering* php, MySQL, xhtml, and some things like photoshop. Also wanting to learn design theory/color theory if I can find info on that.

Or, I could do anything else. Hell... I graduate from college in a year with a degree in management and accounting. I don't want to manage a huge store or anything, and accounting (sadly, found this out too late) bores the hell out of me. But I could do it.

So I have a question...

How much would the "average" proffesional make annually? How about a high-end proffesional? (I don't want to be anything below average, and I certainly want to be above that.) It's a lot of hard work to be a professional. I know of one guy who said he makes a minimum of 200 dollars an hour. However, that was a few years ago and he was (still is) very good. Was he just an exception?

Thx...

Oh, and for the topic at hand... ya, I see a problem with it. A parallel I can relate it too... You heard of miniature games? IE: Warhammer 40k. Go search on ebay for painted models, there are TONS who say "pro-painted" or something to that effect in the title. When you go... it's absolutely amateur. It's to the point where some of the pro's that I know (that can sell a single painted miniature for over 250 bucks) purposely don't put pro in their name. It's not undercutting them (hey, you know the quality you're getting by the pictures), but it puts a bad image out there of what a "pro" is.

And the simple fact that an amateur is trying to pass himself off as pro...

40,000/year minimum is the figure I keep seeing. Good luck on your journey to "mastering" php.

By the way "php" and "high-end professional" don't mix. I don't know any big businesses that use php or if they are any at all. I said it once and I'll say it again... php is for 13 year olds.

Another note, designing pays more than programming.

youll naturally evolve to php anyways, php and html together works like a charm...

Ok, let me get this straight...

You don't like php because it has less "professionalism" to it? If that's the only difference, besides ASP being (i'm assuming here) harder to learn... then PHP wins out.

Anyway, thx for the replies.

And as for what I plan to do... Once I graduate, me and a friend are starting a business. We're getting another friend to be the main manager, as he's knows the field very well, though I know all of it almost as well.

After we get it off the ground and stable, say a year or so, me and my partner will be able to be more "hands off" with the business and let the other person do most of the day-to-day managing. So we'll be free to do other things.

At most, I'll have to spend 2-4 hours a day with the business. (this is a rough estimate based on another business like what we are going in to. We know the owner...)

So... the rest of the time I would like to use to create webpages. I wouldn't go work for someone else, I don't like being under other people. . I want to create a small web design company to keep me busy and generate some cash on the side. I don't mind if we don't get *huge*, but I also want to be as good as I can be. (I never accept any less).

So there you have it. If you think it can't be done... hey, let me know. LoL.

So the plan is staying stable with php/mysql/xhtml/css/photoshop.

You gotta crawl before you walk. You just learned web deign and want to be a web design professional right out of college (or high school?). Here is a little info that might scare you a little...
I have been doing web design for 5 whole years and I'm working on #6. I am only 19 years old. I am proficient in html (not xhtml), css and JavaScript. I also am good at ASP, flash, xml and C#. I know most (if not all) of do's and dont's of the web.

I have been looking for a job for the past 6 months, I went to many interviews and still unable to find a suitable job. I am possibly getting an assistant tomorrow (depending on how the interview goes).

Also I made a attempt at a internet based business, I haven’t given up yet but it has been up for a month now without a single sale. I just don't have time to fix its flaws right now. http://www.optimalsource.biz

I wish it is as easy as you make it sound...

Wow, you're assuming quite a bit there...

First of all, if you've read my posts above you'd realize I graduate arizona college (arizona state university) with a degree in both accounting and management next december. High School? Please.

Just learned webdesign? Who said that? In high school I taught my teacher the entire semester on webpages and photoshop (yes, at the time i had an illegal copy. I admit that). She taught me *nothing* about either. But I just learned web design huh... Oh, she also asked me to come back 3 years later to teach her class things that she couldn't. So...

I've been out of the "loop", so to speak for 4-5 years. Infact, I registered on the forums 5 years ago. Almost 6.

I'm not naive about succeeding on the web. I know it's hard work, hell... accounting is hard work. I can do it, and I can do it well. But I have to force myself to do it... other people, they go HOME TO READ ACCOUNTING BOOKS FOR FUN! I couldn't believe it when I found that out. I do better than a good majority of them at accounting too.. But *they* are the ones who made the right decision on a career. I went with something I shouldn't have. I'm just correcting that. It will be a hell of a lot of work to do well owning a business designing/developing websites. Especially getting to that professional level. I also have 2-3 years before I can even think of doing it, as I first have to graduate and get some other things going (as I explained above). If I'm ready by then... great. If not, I'll keep at it. I tend to learn quite fast when I'm actually interested in what I'm doing.

<-- 22 yrs old and married. Not a 13 year old kid trying to "get rich quick" or anything else.

Oh, and in all seriousness... good luck on your interview.

One is usually going to get biased information when asked PHP/ASP.
On that note, being a PHP person myself, I would recommend PHP.

Why is PHP for 13 year olds? Because it is simple to use, setup and learn? To me, it just means increased productivity because you spend less time coding and setting up.

Getting ones spelling and grammar right is also another step towards the whole "professional" image.

Now THATS Professional!!!

teammatt wrote: Why is PHP for 13 year olds?

This is a misnomer, it is not for 13 year olds. Here's an example: This forum is based upon vBulletin - the industry standard forum software - which uses PHP/MySQL. The guys at Jelsoft are not 13, Megan is not 13, I'm not 13 and I don't think any of the other mods here are either. Please refrain from making grand sweeping statements you simply cannot qualify - tallon is here to look for guidance and the "information" you are peddling is dangerous, unprofessional and could make all of us look like fools.

bja888 wrote: Everything in php is a top level function. Meaning its simple you just tell it what you want it to do and it does it. Not much room for being specific or customizing it.

What? What does this mean exactly: That you don't have a massive COM object overhead because most of the functions commonly used are built into the PHP DLL? Well that's not an advantage, it slows everything down, although you can get extra modules for PHP to extend its functionality, you could also write your own or probably (not sure on the specifics of this) get PHP to call a script in a different language, or an executable etc straight from the command line.

bja888 wrote: Where as asp uses a specific data type and allows you to add/modify it before the action is carried out.

PHP isn't a strongly typed language, so what? The second part makes no sense, are you saying you can't change the value of a variable in PHP?

Google never used ASP, they use massive Linux clusters (some of them over 2000 PC's - imagine how much all those Windoze licenses would cost, and anyway Steve Ballmer is going to bury Google), considering the way Google works they will have written their own software to handle queries - I'd guess it's written in C/C++ since they use Linux.

Check this linkage out for a very geeky Google video to see what I mean about their setup (yeah I watched the whole thing )
http://rakaposhi.eas.asu.edu/f02-cse494-mailarchive/msg00138.html

Please remeber that even in PHP where it is not so strict on the way you program, a good programmer can have great code that is properly writen to minimize errors and mistakes.

The language is that, a language. If you have an idiuot programming, no matter what language they can still make "crap code". Some just put more into preventing the crap code, some make it easier to create. But both can be used properly.

I also am one who beleives while objects and classes are nice for complex things, there are just some projects that it is overkill using them. This is an argument I have heard from my boss on a simple program to add people to a mailing list "where are your classes". One thing that seems to have become lost is the idea of optimizing code. Myself, I like it tidy with as little overhead as possible, no matter which language you are using.

I have avoided this topic mainly the same way I avoid other topics like this. It basically comes down to what you are used to and what you have available to use. If you started from scratch using ASP, you will prefer it over PHP becasue you know how to do things in it already. Myself I started with PHP, and used it for most of the web work I do, so I can do most of my programming without any reference material, straight off of the of my head. This si the reason I prefer Corel Draw over Illustrator. I have been using Corel Draw since 1997, and it's jsut what I am used to. I also prefer Word Perfect, been using that since the first Windows version, so I personnally dislike Word. I use more than "basic" layouts and such, and just know already how to do them in WP. Same arguement as which is beter, Macs or Windows or Linux. Whatever you started learning on you are probably going to prefer over the others.

I fel the only way one person can say "XXX is better than YYY is if they have truely given completely equal time and effort into trying both, which is very rare. Otherwise, the best you can do is say "well I prefer XXX becasue of {reasons}" To say a definate "XXX is better" with nothing to back it up IMO makes you look like a fool. You cannot learn one language from scratch, know it well, and then say you are learning another the exact same way. It is natural that you will always be in your mind comparing the way you are used to to the way you do not yet understand. It is hard.

It took me a while to switch from PERL to PHP. I know it will take me a while to learn ASP. But I'm looking forward to it, and I know to learn it at my own pace, don't try it for a project needing done becasue I will get frustrated, say screw it, and go do it in the language I already know. (I do this a lot at work with files someone else created in Illustrator. It is faster for me to go rebuild them in COrel Draw LOL)

I'm not posting this to put anyone down, this is just how I feel the siutuation is. My hope is that whenever someone comes on here new to web/programming or done it for years, try to give them backed opinions instead of just plain biased answers, and sometimes, we don't even realize they are biased. (I'm guilty too, but I try)

-Greg

Ill second you on that Meg...
Congrats on your new job bja, hope that makes you busy enough for the time being...

I was staying away commenting on the way the thread has turned out but I must type these to say my peace...
I was trained to code (in school) from basic machine language in binary in many level languages... (we concentrated on motorola though) We use our own compile and decompile softwares for what we do, we started learning from C, C++ C#, pascal, basic, VB, Delphi and all of that but i never became biased... Instead all of these made it easier for me to learn html and all its iterations faster. In the net I started before as an idiot who usually collect username and passwords on other sites, use backdoors and break in just for fun (Which I totally forget now, I was very young that time) I evolved learning web coding step by step, started with as little as basic html to javascript to php css and all these in their own time... Im not perfectly the best in all of these but at least Ill continue learning... The important thing here is, in whatever you decide to do, make the best out of it, give it your all, whatever you decide is your own achievement... Im just glad im still here, a better person out of all this chaos... (Ill stop now, im getting a little melodramatic)

Quote: Oh, so google does not use php? Which means they use a programming language like asp does?

There just is no comparison between what Google does and ASP or PHP, it's completely different. Ok, so in ASP you tell the web server to instantiate objects then access their properties and methods and in PHP you tell the web server to instantiate the PHP dll and access it's properties and methods. Google has written it's own web server that recieves http requests and does whatever they programmed the web server to do (see the video in that previous post). This has no relation to PHP or ASP, that layer of the application has been removed entirely.

Quote: You can't write an asp page with just asp.

It's ok, I know how ASP works, it's what I do for a day job... That doesn't mean I like it though.

Quote: I could be wrong but I think C# beats the crap out of php any day.

Muchly depends what you're doing with it, what your requirements are and also what you as a developer prefer (see Gregs post - absolutely correct IMO).

Congrats on the job bja888, good luck!

Depends on what I want to use it for bja, to me it would quite be easier for Active Server Pages coz of my C programming background, in relation however I get the hang of PHP quite a bit, for DB apps I like PHP and MySQL combo, but then Im starting to be a bit of a fan of the PHP flatfile combo too...

Wow someone who uses ASP but perfers php? I had no idea that existed. Well, I am glad I was introduced to ASP first. It allowed me to smoothly transition into programming. I'm writing a program to keep track of my hours.

I'm glad this convo got back on the right trach though. I think the whole "job-less" thing put me in a bad mood the past few months.

I didnt prefer one over the other, They are just tools for different needs like I can use a warhammer for punching nails but then a regular hammer would do the trick, it generally would be overkill I might say...

Here's the opinion I've formulated while pondering this topic since this thread was first posted.

There is some blurry line out there that distinguishes professionals from amateurs. Not only is this line blurry, but it's somewhat different for each person. I might consider someone a professional, but you might consider them an amateur.

The position of that line is based primarily on two things: Level of skills and level of conduct. Someone can be much stronger in one than another and still be considered a professional by many.

Let's talk about two mythical web designers. Joe and Suzy Web design web pages for people. They gets paid for it. They makes a living from it. So far, we don't know enough about Joe and Suzy to decide if we would consider them professionals.

Joe is a people person. He's great at communicating. He is able to figure out exactly what a customer's wants and needs are, and the customer knows that he understands. Joe's actual design skills, while not great, are competent.

Suzy, on the other hand, is a fantastic designer. She feels more at home working on the computer than she does interacting with customers. While she is uncomfortable meeting with clients, she knows that it is necessary, and still acts very polite and tries to communicate well with clients.

Who is the more professional? If you were just looking at portfolios, you might say Suzy. If you were to meet with both designers, you might say Joe. But if both of them have an appropriate amount of skills in both areas, they're both professionals. The difference of opinion generally comes in what is an appropriate amount of skills.

If you're lucky, you get one person who's great in both. Or one design firm that both Suzy and Joe work at. My business tends to be the latter. I'm Joe, and my partner is Suzy. Well, really I'm Tim and my partner is Steve, but I think you get the idea.

Ok, now that we have a good definition of a "professional". The question that keeps me up at night is...

Can Bob (mythical designer #C) take either Joe's or Suzy's job if he knows the boss or someone of high rank. (Or maybe having sexual relations with them)

Bob got a masters degree in English and has been working with company #Q (Wait, what letter are we on?) for 2 years now. The day that company #Q decides it needs to be on the internet Bob mentions that he has been using Dreamweaver for the 5 months and clams he is "Good at it". He also tells boss (#W) he has maintained a website in his spare time (A geocities site or something).

Will company #Q care or know the difference between [Bob] or [Joe and Suzy]? If yes, then is the company willing to spend in order to have the obviously better people?

Intreresting points. I think, however, that what we're getting at here is all the people out there who are selling web design without a competient skill set. The problem with Bob (designer C) is that he doesn't realize that his skillset isn't up to par. He may or may not have a lot of experience - he definitely doesn't have an eye for design or a reasonable level of ability in any aspect of design or development. He is trying to sell web design to clients who don't know enough to recognize his low ability level.

There seems to be a wide variation in what people qualify as "competent". I don't know why but some "designers" just don't seem to realize thet they're not qualified to sell web design. They seem to think they're doing a great job when in reality their work is not even close to being at a professional level. There are a lot of people out there who think they are Suzy but are really Bob. (Or, even worse, they know that they are Bob but recognize that the unsuspecting public can be duped into hiring them).

I looked "professional" up in the dictionary and came up with two relevant meanings:

1. Engaging in a given activity as a source of livelihood or as a career: a professional writer.
2. Having or showing great skill; expert: a professional repair job.

The problem we have in web design (and this is found in many other fields as well) is that people may be "professional" by definition 1 but not by definition 2. Definition 2 is the key to professionalism in this context but people don't seem to realize a) how important it is and b) what it even means to have great skill.

Im reviving this thread, why? coz ive been out of town lately (still am while typing this message) and I have the time to surf instead of working so I spent the time at night surfing in sites which offer web design... And guess what? basically about 80% that are having enough customers use either a template or a CMS/Blog for their own site... the rest custom made their site... Also I noticed that some designers (as they claim to be) as I visited their portfolios have a so and so graphic skill and still maybe the customer cant distinguish between an A+ work with a B+ ...

Great idea demonhale, lets talk about portfolios! I am currently 230 miles away from home to visit the girl friend but I don't really have time to surf the internet. Actually, she just called and as soon as I finish this I will be away from the computer for another day.
You all have seen my portfolio (myweblounge.com) and if you haven't you really should. It's not that functional when it comes to content. It is a great framework to expand apon though.
I would not say that my portfolio is at all miss leading or a bad repersentation of my self. After all I did all of that by my self from scratch. I am compleatly responseble for 100% of the content. While other portfolios try to sell them selfs as much as possable useing what ever templates or tools they can find at their desposal.

Has anyone else seen really fake portfolios?
What do you think of them form a professional view point?
What do you think of them form a amature view point?
Do you think they would still get a job over someone like me?

Discuss, I g2g see the gf

Lets face it, with the software that is available today its not essential to know any HTML or CSS to make a website because the programs do it for you. Some will even write javascript. What makes a professional site over a amateur is the way it looks, colour schemes and design. But you dont have to be that experieced to learn this, just look around the web and get and idea.

The only hard part now in web design is the backend scripting, and even now young 16yo school kids are already writing full blown applications. What the hell is wrong with a budding enthusiastic kid to charge money for a website. If the customer isn't happy he doesnt have to pay!!!!

I have noticed, alot of websites for major courprations are eather 100% flash or 100% amature. Either way they are bad. The question is, how much longer must this go on before the web starts to "clean up"?

That's a good point too - I often hear people say things about how you can't trust information on the web and how it's all spam and garbage. Not true, but when you look around at some of the sites out there you kind of have to agree with them. The web in general looks unprofessional so people believe it's unreliable. To some extent it is, but there are a lot of good on the web as well and we need to work to get it the respect it deserves

Yes but I get stoned to death (rocks not drugs) every time I tell someone flash isn't always the answer. Or that their website shouldent be one big image. Or when you tell someone they don't need background music for their site.

Really, I try to make the web better. Optimal Source is a attempt at selling better website layouts. I am starting to think its all futile though...

Read this:

http://www.alistapart.com/articles/landwarinasia

Excellent article, but the relevant bit here is at the end where he talks about measuring every client request against the strategy.

Quote: Oh, and when your clients call with a brilliant idea? (such as flashy graphics or background music) Point them to the strategy and ask them how their epiphany will help achieve the objective.

I am very happy with my current client. He even thinks some of my ideas are un-nessarry. Its just every time someone IMs me with a link, every time I need to find information and every time I do research on some prouduct. The site needs work... Test g2g

Sorry about that, I was posting before class and the professor just randomly stood up and said test.

Basically, my point is this...
Sure some people are starting to notice that a good web designer is perferd over the walmart brand web designer. Still 80% of the sites I see are no where near what they should be or just missed the mark compleatly.

You know what? when I discuss visions of clients either with their graphic or web dev needs, I always talk about the usability issues, how to make it easy for them to maintain, what kind of things they prefer and I ask a lot of input from them. After which I try to make the best output that I can muster from what they have suggested... Fairly they like what I make for them, I always explain like the way they wany their logo is not good in print but if they want it like that anyway I could proceed...

So the point anyways is like Megan has said, many web designer are not aware of the current skill they have, the main point here however is their are many things to be done in professionalism, not only you need to be good at graphics, you need to be good with coding, and you need to think of issues outside the web, like usability and standards, or even semantic markup... Then professionalism with client dealings, your promptness with deadlines, and providing the best work for clients whatever they want done.

I take pride in what I do, I spent time to learn almost everything, I sweat my arse off making everything pleasing to the clients and then someone says, hey theres a piece of software to make your lives easier, and not essential to know html and css? so your not pro standards, nor attempt to be knowledgeable for clients, it ends up being an opinion rather than a fact.

For once I have to agree with demonhale to a certain extent. Lol! I do think that it's because the tools currently support crap code, it's feasible to put out a website using sub-standard code, and I've certainly done it. It sounds terrible when you call it sub-standard, but that's literally what it is.

However, you can also cook a meal where you follow the recipe exactly. And if you're in a huge hurry, it is probably way faster to follow the recipe and not vary too much from it. But if you know why the recipe uses the ingredients it does, and how it affects it when you vary some of the ingredients, you can make a much better meal if you have a little more time.

Again, I've made my share of "fast meals" and I'm sure I will continue to, but when you can cook up something good, it tastes so much better.

Metaphors can be quite silly, BTW.

Hurrry! My thread has been revived!!!

projectpete wrote: if people are taking jobs away from you then you must not be better for the customer.

Intresting point of view, but I think it goes slightly off topic.
Its not that I cannot give the client (or comapny) what they want. Its more along the lines of, they don't know what they need. When they just want a website and don't care whats on it (that happends a lot). Then they hire the cheepest thing they can find. When they want somthing inpressive they proublly go all flash. There is a really thin line of companys that want usefull sites. And a even larger amout of companys that need a usefull site.

i didnt mean you personally, i was just using the word "you" to generalize

Either way the argument still stands.

A lot of companys still dont use the web in it's full potential, to some it's just a online brochure, others it's a form of income.
I have spoken to a few people who have been 'scammed' by these $100 websites (5 pages in one, made in FP type deals) and had no results or bad results - once bitten ...

Hi all,

The main problem with the whole situation of "amature versus professional" is the market is still there, whether you are a professional or an amature alot depends on marketing skills aswell as design skills, I have seen so many professional web designers/developers go under because of lack of business initiative and have also seen so many amature's businesses thrive, it's ashame because alot of the professionals produce some of the best designs I have seen but potential clients have got to see the work we produce. Part of our job is to educate the general public of what qualifies as good design and what qualifies as bad design. If you market something correctly you could sell ice to eskimos. I could get angry until i'm blue in the face at some 16 year old web designer thats sitting in his bedroom rolling off his 15th site of the day and making a small fortune from it but at the end of the day he is in direct competition with me so i have to act positively and practically.

The bottom line is that amatures and professionals both have the same goal, to sell websites, it is up to us to prove to the potential clients that we are producing the greater work.

BTW, I use to be one of those 16yo bedroom designers, those were the days hehe.

For those who remember me from before im back my account got deleted registered under old email account, but im back now YAY!

Then Welcome Back! I dont Remember you since maybe I wasnt registered yet at that time, well anyways, a bunch of arguments has been said, but good point...

Weather or not the site is considerd professional is compleatly dependent on the person who is viewing it.

Weather or not the site is done by a professional depends on how many people it makes angry. If a professional does their job right it should always look flawless.

fiesty_01, the questions you posted are heading the right direction but not quite there. The objective of most websites is not to entertain someone so they come back but to pass information. For most websites; if they do their job correctly they will not need to come back.

I don't think any of that is even true. Fiesty made some good points there. A site needs to serve it's purpose and a good professional will be able to do that. Passing on information is just one possible purpose for a site. If you're a professional you're probably also trying to sell something (which I think a lot of designers could use some help with!). The purpose of some websites may be to entertain people so they come back. It may be to give them regular, quality content so they come back. It may be to sell them a good product with good service so they come back. It's a key concern for almost all websites I think. For most websites; if they do their job correctly they will want to come back. They may even want to tell their friends about it.

I dont' know what those first two sentences were about. No, please, don't try to explain.

philicom made some good points about designers being able to sell their services, but I don't necessarily think that fits with the context of this conversation. We're talking about professional quality work which is independent from whether you can sell yourself or not. I think a good professional will realize what their strengths are and find a niche where they can support themselves somehow, which may mean working for another company. This is the main reason why I don't do freelance work! So, if a person produces quality work but can't sell it independently I don't think that means they're not a professional - they are, they just need to be working for a company that finds the work for them.

Came across this article, makes me laugh
http://www.quirksmode.org/index.html?/blog/archives/2005/11/the_new_amateur.html

all the links at top of article are similar, is like watching a bunch of sheep all following one another, if this is what is meant by being a professional, I'll pass thanks.

Lol, If CSS + JavaScript make you a professional then I have been running strong for 3 years now

They mean standards, basically. That topic was going around on all the blogs a few weeks ago.

Personally, I'm not sure whather I agree or not. I agree that it's important to use the most modern techniques in any profession. Or at least be familiar with them. But there are other important things too and I wouldn't de-classify someone as a professional for one reason alone.

One of things that makes me laugh is the so called 'professionals' web pages, several I have come across don't display well, the text is miles long and goes under ads etc so is unreadable, others have things on top of each other making it unreadable and so on.
I reckon they aren't professional, just a cult type following with the power going to their heads.
I'm all for accessibility and standards, but if it means making a site unreadable - pass, will stick to the true known methods.

hmmm if you read the threads, read from the beginning, their are good point pointed out, and it seems it has been resolved. But now its been revived from the pits of death...

This is my thread!! I dought the people who revive it read the entire thing any way.

Ok probably my fault for putting a new spin on it, but title is Amature vs. Professional.
Whats the real meaning of a professional? from the link I mentioned (and following ones) seems none of us here are professional, seems it's a select few that think they are all god like.

And you take that as law? I sure don't. Lets come up with our own definition! Everyone can list some qualities they think a professional have and while compile them at the end.

Here are some of mine:

• High quality work. In web design this means that a site should be not only good looking, but functional and easy to use. It should also communicate the client's message effectively and encourage visitors to take the next step. Other standards of quality would vary depending on specialization (i.e. developers would have different requirements than designers)
• Interest in new and emerging techniques and new developments in the field.
• Concern for the clients' needs and mature attitude when communicating with clients.
• Ability to earn a living practicing web design and/or development.

Expernce - they should know how a each browser should react to diffrent elements.
Proublem solveing - They should know what type of technology to use when, and of corse why use it.

Splling - They should us prioper spleling when tpying emals and suchk.

fiesty_01 wrote: I would think that an online shopping site would want their visitors to come back.

I was thinking along the lines of a infirmation based website.

Even then, you'd hope that people like your information enough to come back again when they need to know something else.

Megan's right. I think there are very few websites that hope you only visit them once.

Upon reading above, Its a good idea to recompile the whole thread, and point at those we all agree in...

For Mine:
Professionalism - should be there as a professional, either the way you deal with people, or the way you give your best in the way you do and accept criticisms as challenges and hurdle them by learning as much as you could, and never stop learning about the newer things.
Aptitude - you do what you advertise, you are best at what your skill-set is based on, you do research, you do nitty gritty stuff to stay in shape for your customers, never rely on your assistants to do job and communication for you.
EQ (Emotional Quotient) - The way you handle things, pressure, deadlines, and your reactions to problems posed to you, how you analyze and react to the situation, how fast and precise you get things done without getting either too annoyed to do nothing...

I personally have a problem with sites like elance because a good professional is sure to get outbid by a cheap amateur. I do good quality work, I know what I'm worth, and I don't do work for "cheap". Most professionals will have overhead costs that amateurs don't.

A ways to tell professionals from amateurs:

• Conduct ain interview (in person, if possible). You can tell a lot by the way people speak and handle themselves in a meeting. You'll want to get an overview of their understanding of the work you need to have done. An amateur will generally think in very narrow terms (i.e. programming is about writing the code, design is about making it look good). You want someone who can make a product that works for your business and can demonstrate that with examples from their portfolio.
• Look at their websites (especially personal websites). You don't want to work with someone who does not have a professional image on the web. Google them and/or any screen names they go by (if you can find that out).
• Go here: http://validator.w3.org/ and enter the URL of their website(s), There should be few (preferably no) errors.
• Ask for a CV/Resume and references.
• Be wary of community certificate programs or "ITT Tech" type certificates. These are generally of low quality.

I'm sure I'll think of more later...

w3 (or w3c).org is validation guidelines for web standards.

When you validate a site you may get many errors but the errors can be downline errors caused by the first couple of errors, example if you miss an end tag it will use the next end tag and thus cause several errors because it has used another end tag.

Those big corproate sites are way behind when it comes to standards. They seem to need convincing that it's worth the effort, which is unfortunate. Web standards are sort of like a building code - you don't want to work with someone who isn't following it. The problem with those big corproate sites is that they started before standards were really widely used and their sites haven't fallen down (yet) so they don't bother doing things properly.