hundred of thousands of CCTV on the streets ?

Liam (my husband) was reading something the other day about how the British are the most watched people in the world. Maybe he'll stop by with more info

I read that this would never be allowed in USA because we love our freedom way too much and that it's accepted by Europeans because of thier long history of being ruled.

Now... in NYC CCTV's are poping up on every other streetlamp and intersection. They make them grungy and dirty looking, and small so they blend into the environment (not that NYC is dirty).

So... I guess the last "Freedom" theory was wrong. Especially after 9/11.

Yes, it's true: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,2761-2426874,00.html
There is one camera for every 14 people (4.2 million cameras) , and we've already had instances of the police (who're watching the cameras) getting bored and harrassing the general public. Phoning phone boxes and harrassing women for instance.

The next thing will be the ID cards, which will log all sorts of activity. Those things are ineffectual, massively expensive and a horrible invasion of privacy. But hey, ho it stops terrorism! Not.

JoseffB wrote: So... I guess the last "Freedom" theory was wrong.

Exactly. September the 11th scared everyone, and fear is a great way to control people. Most people will be willing to give up their freedoms (that they probably take for granted) if they think it means they're not going to die at the hands of some 'terrorist'.

Terrorists or no terrorists, the only way to deal with any threat like this (percieved or real) is to carry on living life exactly how we all were before. Doing anything else (including bringing in Fascist laws like the Patriot act or the slew of 'anti-terrorism' laws we saw in the UK) is giving-in to the percieved terrorist threat. IMO anyway.

Although in the UK, those cameras started appearing long before any terrorist threat. The nanny, 1984-esque state in that country was always what Tony Blair wanted, the 'War on Terror' has only accelerated his plans. He's not doing this for any personal gain either IMO, it actually seems to be his philosophy. I do respect him for standing by what he believes in, but he has made some awful blunders and should step-down.

Try watching some of these videos!

http://www.question911.com/linksall.htm

Very different story from what we see in the mainstream.

Also download the movie "Terror Storm" from here: http://www.lastingnetworks.com/alex/

The evidence speaks for itself.

Andrew.

I think You should stay pcmedicplus.

I am interested in the debate.

I want everyone in the world to be comfortable and happy.

If an American wants that, What should he do?

Well there's a time and a place for my opinions and TWF is not the place. I will now shut up. Sorry for the offence caused. Anyone else is welcome to continue the discussion, but please be respectful with your opinions. Unlike me.

*** EDIT
I have also removed myself as Administrator. Hopefully that will mean my comments do not bring the forum into any more disripute.
Thank you, I hope if you do happen to return that you'll see that I am taking this seriously.

I wouldn't worry about it Jeeves. How were you going to know that pcmedicplus was going to fly into a tiz and get all offended. What is so wrong about saying "Fascist laws like the Patriot act"? There's nothing wrong with saying that.

Keep talking dude. Pcmedicplus says he has moved to a new forum. In a few weeks he'll get upset again and move somewhere else in a continuing cycle that will hopefully take him towards further enlightenment.

Web Warrior wrote: What is so wrong about saying "Fascist laws like the Patriot act"? There's nothing wrong with saying that.

Well, it's perfectly fine for you to say that, but I had a badge next to my name saying that I'm an admin. That means anything I said may be taken as being the opinion of all the staff (although it's not). What I said wasn't well thought out and would be read as an extremist viewpoint.

We do not seem to have a problem with a lack of Americans on the forums--4 of the mods are American--what's nice is there's a good balance of people from many countries. pcmedicplus pointed that out.

pisstaker wrote: Civil liberties are an illusion but by the same token, if you are a law abiding person, does it matter if there are cameras around the high street? Better that it makes idiots think twice than you feel invaded.

Civil liberties are an illusion?! Where'd you get that one from? As for cameras, where's the evidence that they help? Was listening to the World Service earlier, they were talking about how they've now got cameras with megaphones attached. A man told the BBC how he was shouted at by a policeman in some control room, via the megaphone, for cycling through a padestrian precinct! They also had an interview with a local councillor, who said the police often thank people for putting litter into bins and chastise people for dropping litter.

Whether they're helping or not, that's just too much invasion of privacy for my liking. What if you wanted to scratch your bum? Or pick your nose? Or if you're a man: what if the royal orbs and sceptre need re-arranging?! Would you like to be watched doing all that?

Surely it will also be very easy for those cameras to swivel a little and start looking in through the windows of peoples houses. Everyone has secrets that the rest of the world shouldn't know, things like bank PIN numbers, and other passwords. Increased surveillance leads to increased possibility for crime (especially identity theft) IMO.

The cameras are a kind of modern technlological solution that can do part of the job of having a policeman walking the beat on every street. Scratching your arse in public isn't a crime yet thankfully.

I assume everyone reads this site daily: http://www.rense.com/

I think most countries use CCTV, especially in main centres, we do in NZ but isn't widely known.

Auckland City has about 70 of them.

Well geeez....I think the majority of the member here are American! Anyway....I feel, as does everyone I know, that the Patriot Act indeed is stripping us of the very freedoms that our constitution was meant to give us.

Don't even get me started on the idiot in the White House.......

And remember...Off Topic areas are meant for just that, and everyone has a right to an opinion! Lets be adults here!! If you don't agree with something someone has said, then simply 'agree to disagree'!

My admin status has been brought back, after reading peoples opinions here and discussing with the mods, who've kindly forgiven me. Thanks all, and sorry for being a little hot-headed and controversial.

Greg, that is scary. Not only that but if you read between the lines it could mean the Government are unable to employ enough police to patrol the border themselves.

There are plans to put at least another 70 cameras 'throughout south Texas'! Are the people there happy with this, it seems a little like government ratified vigilantism to me?

On the topic of the thread, earlier I came across this ranking of [URL="http://www.privacyinternational.org/article.shtml?cmd[347]=x-347-545269"]leading surveillance societies[/url]. No surprise that the UK is the most surveilled society; Germany and Canada are the lowest ranked on that list.

New Zealand tops the 'workplace monitoring' category. Go NZ!

That's the very same study I was talking about earlier. Good link though, haven't seen it in that much detail. Have to say am very glad to be in Canada! There was an interview with a local councillor about the security cameras with attached megaphones, he said no-one was complaining about them. In fact he said people had asked for them!

I think this is mostly because of British adults fearing youngsters. The UK has big problems with families falling apart, a lot of children are allowed to do what they want. There's no adult around to learn from, so kids learn from each other.

Wha-huh? What does the age of consent in Canada have to do with underage drinking in Europe??

Have you Canadians no morals?

So you're saying that it's a statistical thing, right?

And the age of consent mainly has to do with who can get prosecuted for what. The footnote on the site you linked makes that clear. Of course Canadians have morals

Oh, I'm not mad. Just confused (despite use of mad smiley!). Although I would be mad if I thought you were actually saying that Canadians lack moral values. Which I'm sure you were not. All tongue-in-cheek (thus use of stickout tongue smiley??)

I remember how the Americans went to war with Canada in the Southpark movie, all on supposed moral grounds.

Maybe it is a-boot time the rest of the world started catching up?

Web Warrior wrote: Maybe it is a-boot time

LMAO!!! It's true they really do pronounce 'ou' as 'oo'. Bless their Canadian cotton socks.

Thanks for the vote of confidence DDoSAttack, I listened to the results of the elections with great interest. Seems the Republicans are definately going to lose the senate (when they've finished all the counting in Virginia). Thing is that it's your country, not mine so I shouldn't pass judgement.

You can say what you like though.

We do not!!! At least we're not like Americans and say abaout. My sister is starting to talk like that now.