Big News! TWF to merge?

I'm not so sure about this... your points are true, but I haven't heard of pageresources.com...

Hi,

I think John's site is super.

I come to this forum because it's a habit and I enjoy it. If it stopped for some reason, the pageresource forum would definitely be my other choice.

I don't know how you plan to deal with the technical aspects of the merger - incorporating both data bases - but I'm sure you'll do a great job.

I'm in favor.

Anat.

I'm all for the merger. Great guys over there. Especially that Vincent guy. If we could get him to post on our forums it would be really helpful.

In all seriousness, the only concern that I have is that the pageresource forums seem to be real slow. Would they be hosted here?

Especially that Vincent guy

I think you might be refering to Vincent Puglia...and he is a prolific poster here.

JP I am all for the merger..truth is I found out about John Pollacks forum before I found out about TWF...I found the TWF from PageResource.com. I think a merger would put you 2 steps ahead of anyone and everyone else. Be sure to let us know if you need any help at all.

How about that Arielladog guy?

Clap clap, and all.

I'm all for it--it allows me to expand my conquered areas.

....now... I SMASH THEE BARBARIC INTEL FOR SELLING INDEO TO LIGOS, YOU DIE!

I like pageresource.com, they're a cool place. TWF would trully benefit merging together. Just wait until Microsoft steps around the corner and finds a BIG, highly-trafficed, website and messageboard just waiting to be bought out. ... then renamed to MicrosoftBoard or TWFMicrosoft or other very cheesy names.

I'm in favor!! As for what JP said:

" brining more 'subject matter experts' "

as long as Fisher is here (and is, apparently, conquerer of Mars and now Neptune), we may never have a normal forum again. (so technically TWF may not survive at all, ever )

Just my 0.0002 cents
Sabrina (the teenage witch)

Jupiter's next! MOOOAHAHAHA!

If PageResource and TWF combine, will both forums be deleted and one combined one be created or what? I'd like more details... I'm definitely all for this, but need more information.

more info....
will one site mirror the other?
will they *look* different but pull from the same DB?

Hmm, haven't been in TWF for a long time now, but why is it that when I visit pageresources.com, it says that the domain is for sale?

First off, the domain is pageresource.com NOT pageresources.com, which is probably why you found what you found.

Anyway, after thinking about this for a while, I have come to the conclusion that this wouldn't help TWF, and would actually 'cause more problems. So that's why I'm against this merger. Of course I don't have all the details, but that's another issue.

But who knows; merging with Page Resource could boost this forum big time. The above is just my opinion.

I'm for it, but would like more details too. Think they should move the posts from there to here because I don't want to go to a different site. I also don't want this to affect any people that are moderator and stuff like that now so that they don't get kicked out from this. Otherwise, I think its a good idea!!

All For It

sounds good, but some more details would be nice.

Hi

The forum JP is talking about can be found at:
Javascript City.

Since I'm sort of a fence-walking (being a moderator for both forums (as well as some others), I would like to say the following (take it all as one man's opinion, a man who has been wrong before and will be again in the future):

The PageResource/JavascriptCity forums are geared mostly toward coding -- html, css, javascript, dHTML, asp, vbscript, php, perl, etc (the weakest area probably being perl).

As here, there was some skepticism and concern about the possibility of a merger, primarily for the following reason:
Loss of the sense of community -- at jsCity we play, learn, and post. People go off topic occasionally, but when someone says 'enuf', everyone listens.

1) the mods there are probably as apprehensive about a merger as you.
2) the mods there are as nice, helpful, and knowledgeable as you

Now insofar as what I've heard and surmised:
The forums will be hosted on JP's servers. No mirror sites -- they are talking about a real merger; something akin to what happened to sitepoint a few months ago. I can't speak about the mod positions here, because that's up to JP, but I would bet if you've been a good boy, you'll be staying Most, not all, of the mods at jsCity will be coming over (including ariellaDog), but as I said before the forum sections do not necessarily conflict.

I tend to rattle on at times (because of all the mugs of espresso I drink), so I'll stop now with these final thought:
Communities change or they die -- Persia, Ancient Greece, Rome, etc.
Ultimately, we as members and mods do not have the last decision. Contrary to the ravings of the conqueror of the solar system , this board belongs to JP, and the one at Javascript City belongs to John. What they decide, will happen. We as members and mods have to live with it and make the best of it. That means getting along with and helping everyone.

Vinny

Hi guys,

Thanks to all of you who complimented my site and/or its forums.

I'll address some of the questions from what I know and/or JP has mentioned to me through e-mail:

-"In all seriousness, the only concern that I have is that the pageresource forums seem to be real slow. Would they be hosted here?"

Sometimes the site slows a bit when I get a lot of visitors doing things at once. The forums are very busy in the mid-afternoon so the site can slow down around that time. If we did the merger, the forum would be on the TWF server and domain.

"If PageResource and TWF combine, will both forums be deleted and one combined one be created or what? I'd like more details... I'm definitely all for this, but need more information."

My best guess here is that JP wants to try to keep all the posts, members, etc. from both sites and put them all together. This would take a bunch of backend work trying to catch matching member names and post numbers, and then sorting it out though.

Talks are positive, but no decisions have been made yet. We are getting opinions from both sets of members to see the response. I'm open to comments both for and against the idea, so I can tell what good and/or problems the merger might create.

Just saw Vinny's post. He has mentioned a few of the issues to consider when thinking this over. The communities would become one large one, which can be good or bad depending on how the two get along. One of the things I like at my forums are my moderators. They do a great job, even when I'm not around enough to do much myself.

[Edited by John Pollock on 10-14-2000 at 01:14 AM]

Well I would imagine that you could merge posts easily, and members with a little more work. It appears that it is a small forum, so I dont know how much it would truly help, but that is up to you

Go for it. I'd like to meet this Arielladog character...

Justin: AriellaDog posts once in a while on this board too. Not as much as he used to but I remember him posting here.

Mooahahah! Unfortunetly Vincent, you SHALL BE GOING! FOR I AM JP STONES, BILL CLINTON, WINSTON CHURCHILL, AND THE JOLLY GREEN GIANT!

YOU ALL SHALL BE GOING, FORE WHEN THE HEAVENS BREAK AND MIGHTY FLAPJACKS FALL LIKE COMETS, YOU ALL SHALL REPENT TO ME!

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH! HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA!

I think we will need a referendum, or have a survey or something.

Suggestions for a referendum :
We will need a leader who goes for the offer, and a leader against the offer. These leaders must be confident and convincing in their reasons to oppose/to forward with the merger . I call Vincent Puglia to be one of them because of his convincing report in his post (but I couldn't tell if he was against or with it). Who will be running up for the other position? Pollock? JP? Fisher *gag* ?

Sabrina

After much aprehension and thinking and concerns,

I've decided that the merger probably would be for the better interests of both forums. It will add much to both forums.

I'd add a lot more (I have a lot more to add ), but I'm at my sister's dorm and have to go now to do some stuff before football game - Clemson, BTW

I'll be home Sunday night and will either post then or Monday (no school).

I'll be looking forward to this,
aDog

Hmmm, I am a regular at http://www.wsabstract.com 's forums. Arielladog gave me a link here and I thought that this could impact the internet in some slight way, so here I am with my 2 cents .

From what I have seen, the WA has the biggest, most frequently visited forum. JavascriptCity (a pageresource partner or something) can't compare well to WA's forum. And from the little I've seen from this site, the forums aren't posted as often here as they are at the WA (but the total amount seems higher, I am guessing that there is a huge back-collection of posts somewhere raising the total number up - As since WA uses UBB, they must dump their collection every now and then ). (Correct me if I am wrong about the posting here)

So, this proposal may put you two (will be one) either equal to WA or maybe even higher than the WA.
Good points:
You'll have the biggest forum on the internet. Which means this will be one of the best places to come for answers.
Bad points:
With many people, you are bound to get a few bad ones.

WA is quite large but has been quite lucky as there has been only one mild attack on the boards (some angry questioner spammed a board with a hundred or so messages), but will inevitably encounter more as time progresses.
If TWF/PR/JScity merges, those bad people will migrate here, which is bad.

But of course, the good measures out the bad in this case, so I would fully support any merger (and since you both use vBulletin, it can't be THAT hard to merge boards.)

That post may have led you to think I don't like JScity.

Sorry about that misconception John, I post there every now and then . Nice little cozy forum (and a nice place to go when I wish to escape the wombat infestation WA has - don't ask ).

But, 3 forums is too taxing on my time, BUT, if you two were to merge, I'd probably become a regular here too . And Vinny or Arielladog will tell you that I am a good member to have regularly.

[Edited by jkd on 10-14-2000 at 02:07 PM]

If we merged then we would be one of the biggest webmaster-related forums on the Internet. Then we could actually make fun of SitePoint Nah, I'm just playin...

Hi Justin: I hope not -- I moderate at Sitepoint And I don't know how I'd react to someone making fun of one of the boards I moderate on.

Hi Sabrina: Thanks for the nomination, but...I like walking the fence; it gives me more freedom and a better vantage point. I'll play devil's advocate for both sides if you like (and if Mike doesn't do me in first -- or vice versa -- you do know, I'm from Brooklyn, right Mike??

As jkd said: a merger would make a larger forum, whether that would be a better forum depends on you -- the mods & members -- what you want out of it and what you give into it. When I began posting at jsCity, it was relatively quiet. Not any more. There are members there who started posting with the simplest of questions and now help answer some of the toughest (jon steele, for one, if you decide to go on over and peek).

BTW: Caislanders, one of jsCity's mods, has posted in the html/javascript forum

Vinny

Quote: Originally posted by Justin Stayton
If we merged then we would be one of the biggest webmaster-related forums on the Internet. Then we could actually make fun of SitePoint Nah, I'm just playin...

If I recall, TWF used to be bigger than SitePoint.

And Vincent, you are lucky to get to be a moderator there. They don't allow minors, but I'm glad to be one here.

I am very new to this board..only a few weeks reading and very little posting...
but i have been reading at jscity for quite awhile now...
the combining of the two with keeping all the moderators from both boards as well as the forum topics would be great i am thinking.
As a newbie really to all things there is much to learn and many forums here to do that ..at jscity i am limited by the lack of knowledge i have in the programming languages...
which is also why i don't spend a lot of time at WA..
I just hope it can be done with as little stepping -on-toes as posssible...having 'nice' and good people to ask questions of is the only way i have learned any thing.

good luck

dragonsjaw

Since Sabrina offered a good suggestion as to how we can further the discussion and get a better feel for the good and bad points of the possible merger, I'll go ahead and play the "bad guy" (because it is fun ) here and give some possible reasons not to merge. Whoever wants to step into the "good guy" role jump in.

Bad Points:

1. The PR/JSC forums overall are smaller than TWF. What incentive does it give to TWF members to merge with a smaller forum?

2. There would be 4 or 5 new moderators and another new admin here. Depending on where they are added, it could make some of the mods on either side feel "crowded" or that their job is less important. Also, one set of mods may like to do things one way and the other set might like to do things another way. Perhaps the possibility of inner turmoil?

3. Neither I nor JP seem to have much free time at the moment. What improvements could be made if neither of us have the time to deal with things?

4. What does each side get? TWF gets linked from my sites as though it is part of them. I could put links to my sites here. Would anyone bother visiting my sites from links on the forums? If so, that would seem to be the only real advantage to my sites from this.

5. Members with the same names? Who gets to keep the name if I have a member named "Joe" and so does TWF?

6. Technical/Backend. Someone mentioned it wouldn't really be that hard to merge the posts and members, and you are probably right. The problem is that I would probably have to try and figure it out myself. I'm no PHP/DB whiz at the moment plus I don't have much time to learn more about it with the major non-web project I am working on now. If I have to do it, it could end up being a big mess..

7. If things don't go well, who gets blamed and flamed? Me? JP? Poeple that came from my forums?

8. Different Focus. As Vinny said, PR/JSC has a more narrow focus for its members (coders) while TWF has a more broad focus (all points of webmastering and hosting). Does the combination add up to success or dissention?

9. Look how long-winded I am. Do you really want me as an administrator here?

nice job.. I think might have enjoyed that a bit too much

As far as the technicals (the actuall act of merging the DB's)... These are webmaster forums... I think that you would find enough answers for any questions that you would have.

PHP/DB ... I do quite a bit of that at work and home . If you have questions, I'd be happy to help.

Following John's line of questions:

What if someone is a member in both forums under different names? Can they join their number of posts? I wonder if that would create new posting records. Mike, that could be a problem for you

As to what JP and John get out of this. I think someone on the thread already mentioned a Microsoft takeover...

Anat.

How about this,

I'll start a new forum and call it The Webmaster Java Script city and steal all the posts and members from the other forums and then I can be conquerer of the universe. Several thousand posts at a time.

(Sorry forgot the MOOOAHAHAHA! had to edit.)

MOOOAHAHAHA!

[Edited by Jim Shilt on 10-15-2000 at 04:40 PM]

Sloppy Seconds, eh, Jim? You shall be CRUSH-ED by my army of flapjacks!

Jim Shilt - a follower of Fisher... *gives jim the evil eye*

S

Hahaha

Argh! He is no follower of me! He is an Antagonist. You see, on my home planet of Flappin' Jack 9, we are opposing the planet of Shilty Pants Beta, a planet many light years from my own. I see this one has followed me for many years. NOW YOU SHALL FEEL THE WRATH OF JACK!

I'd like to show you what members at JSP/PR forum have said:

http://javascriptcity.com/forums/showthread.php3?threadid=1874

I have to agree that over there we seem to have a real 'coziness' (as Flo put it).

Now, I'm not really sure about merging.

Over there, I seem to fit it. I make sure all questions get answered (no mater how stupid ). I feel like I have other members and mods to "lean on." I've bonded with the people over there, and I'm not sure if I'm ready to "join others"

When I say "join others" will I keep the bonds I have and create new ones, or could I possibly lose the ones I have and have no bonds whatsoever?

That is one of my fears about the new merger, but there are many good sides to the merger that I think are good, but due to the overwhelming "no" response to the merger idea at the JSP/PR forum, I'm very unsure.

aDog

If we merge, I propose we keep this design and layout, it's neat and original... taking into account that if we change the name ftom TWF to somthing else, the title on the top blue banner should be changed but maintain the outer glow, and dark blue internal color in the text.

Sabrina

guys, I will get to all the points later on today (will answer on my way home) but thought this was a great line.

Communities change or they die -- Persia, Ancient Greece, Rome, etc.

it really is so true, everything evolves. Sure, we are slightly apprehensive about changing something we know and like but merging two communities would create more opportunities for friendship while maitaining the others.

If you are popular at TWF/JSC you will be popular elsewhere - it is in your nature.

I'm feeling positive and at piece with the world

JP

Hi,

It appears that I am also a registered member there as well .

Here's what I posted about the merger over there:
-----------------------------------------------------
I usually post at TWF, but I really like PageResource and JavaScript City. I was all for the merger and reading this thread only convinced me of the benefits.

I like the TWF for exactly the same reasons that you mentioned here about this forum. There are very nice people there and I usually get a lot of help (and do my best to help others).

You're right about this point - this forum is more code-oriented and that's good. The other side of the same argument is that you might find the TWF design forums helpful. Code goes into a web page and some members here may like to read about other web design aspects. Same is true for web marketing and other subjects covered by TWF.

John, I think that lot of people here and in TWF are apprehensive because they feel it might hurt a sense of community that was acheived by getting to know each other. Why don't you and JP organize a combined thread (if that's at all possible), that would be all about getting to know each other, where members of both communities introduce themselves in a relaxed atmosphere?

I think there's no need to hurry. Take your time about it and let people adjust to the idea.
-------------------------------------------------------

JP, I totally agree with your previous post on this thread.

How about setting up a new temporary neutral forum (or any other means you can think about), to let people from both places meet in a neutral place and get to know each other. This place would be great for a bilateral discussion of the issue (and for group therapy )

Anat.

Well I just got finished posting some answers to questions at the PageResource Forums that their members had. Go check it out. Also, while you're there, please comment on your opinions on the merger. Many of the people there don't like the idea of a merger...

Not to sure about this.

Yes, more poster bring more posts,
but the noise-to-data-ratio will get even worse.

Some of the older posters might have noticed that I was barely around for the last 6 month;
And I'll tell you why:
In the beginning (years ago ) the quality here was very good and the knowledge level quite high.
That dropped rapidly in the last year.
I know that beginners have to start somewhere and I love to share my knowledge, but the realy "high-profile"-discussions were just pushed aside.

A bigger community always means greater anonymity (<- surely spelled wrong) for the individual and a lower barrier to unfair/unfriendly behaviour.

just my thoughts
anti

You may be right, but that doesn't mean things can't change... maybe JP should e-mail all of the members (if that' possible) and remind them about TWF again... I know all 3,600+ of them don't regularly post here...

JP's actually already done that. It made 10-20 come back and post a few more times, but really didn't do anything. My advice would be to send a message to all the members with less the 20 posts saying their account will be deleted in a week/month if they don't get above 30 posts. Something to that effect...

That's a good idea Justin. It sounds a little harsh but I think it will work on getting people to come back.

Yeah, that's a good idea. Really, 3000+ members means nothing when most of them don't participate regularly. Or get rid of all the "members" who haven't posted in over a year or something like that (I think this would be better than basing it on number of posts - there could be a lot of new people with fewer than 20)

Anyway, I think this merger sounds like a good idea. I have experienced problems with several forums growing too much too soon - but in those cases it was mainly a problem with huge influxes of newbies, which diluted the original qualify of the forum. This, however, is a case of two strong communities of serious web builders coming together. A merger can only make things better IMHO.

Of course there will be a period of adjustment - I really like the idea of setting up some sort of a neutral forum to ease the transition.

If you like, I can contribute a neutral meeting place for a couple of weeks. I have a vbulletin forum installed on http://www.thecatsite.com and it'll probably take me a few weeks to launch the site itself. I wouldn't mind trying out the forum first

Anat

Overall=Yes

While I agree that bigger isn't always better, some good ways to judge the need or value of a merge is by the benefit to the customer (obviously) and the ease of transition between the mergers. Having browsed TWF, here are my thoughts on both issues:

Javascript is a web development tool. TWF, while a very comprehensive board, seems a little lacking in this area. Conversely, JC specializes in it. You can't ask for a better way to eliminate a shortcoming than pooling resources/outsourcing.

I find postings on both boards to be informational and friendly. The mods/admins on both sites are doing a great job of fostering this environment. I don't think this would be lost in the merge since it is already there.

More posters=more postings=more ?'s answered.

Other thoughts:

Personally, I prefer JC's design/color scheme. The soft blues are less sterile (i.e., more friendly) than the all-white. I also like JC's icon/graphics-based option menu as opposed to TWF's heavy text usage (again, that sterile, clinic feel).

[Edited by WebTech on 10-18-2000 at 04:44 PM]

Yes I would be up for the merger.
I'm going to run over there and register 'Grandmaster' before someone else gets it : ).
I think it would be a good idea, the coding in this forum would be strong, while the webmastering in JavaScript City forums would be strong..

'Like this instead of having one musculer arm and trying to lift a load, have two musculer arms that could do it so easily.' : )